(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[5x60 byo-yomi]PW[RoseDuke]PB[egogames]WR[8d]BR[7d]DT[2010-03-11]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[egogames [7d]: hihi]RE[W+Resign];B[pd]BL[60]OB[5]C[RoseDuke [8d]: hi];W[pp]WL[60]OW[5];B[cd]BL[60]OB[5]C[bv4 [1k]: and here they go!];W[cq]WL[60]OW[5]C[foudytoo [3k?]: W+RoseDuke [8d]: joey?bv4 [1k]: b take a lead but w follows closly!];B[cn]BL[60]OB[5];W[eq]WL[60]OW[5];B[dk]BL[60]OB[5];W[ed]WL[60]OW[5];B[ee]BL[60]OB[5];W[cc]WL[60]OW[5];B[dd]BL[60]OB[5];W[dc]WL[60]OW[5];B[fd]BL[60]OB[5];W[ec]WL[60]OW[5];B[fc]BL[60]OB[5];W[fe]WL[60]OW[5];B[ef]BL[60]OB[5];W[bd]WL[60]OW[5];B[be]BL[60]OB[5];W[bc]WL[60]OW[5];B[cf]BL[60]OB[5];W[de]WL[60]OW[5]C[miae [8k]: no comment every move?....:Pegogames [7d]: hahaegogames [7d]: saw this game last time?bv4 [1k]: (got aready tirred of myself sorry)Tsuijin [1d]: this game was already played?Emperial [2d]: yesmiae [8k]: missed...>.<...real pitybitzi [-]: ego said he will ignore thisfoudytoo [3k?]: Cornel looked at this move last time versus egogames. Or was it BUM... foudytoo [3k?]: I think it was BUM.RoseDuke [8d]: I taught my student this black openning...Warfreak2 [5d]: go roseyegogames [7d]: haha, it spread out quickly.foudytoo [3k?]: Rosey=zchen];B[ce]BL[60]OB[4]C[foudytoo [3k?]: ?];W[ge]WL[60]OW[5];B[hc]BL[60]OB[4]C[Schmidtt [10k]: no];W[hd]WL[60]OW[5];B[gb]BL[60]OB[4];W[fb]WL[60]OW[5](;B[gc]BL[60]OB[4];W[jc]WL[60]OW[5]C[RoseDuke [9d]: I thought you going to fight, butRoseDuke [9d]: G17 no good bah];B[jb]BL[60]OB[4]C[MXHero [-]: what a neat sequence!DaoLin [3d?]: nice tesuji ahead];W[kb]WL[60]OW[5]C[DaoLin [3d?]: no?Warfreak2 [5d]: b didn't play itWarfreak2 [5d]: he's not super strong];B[ib]BL[60]OB[4];W[kc]WL[60]OW[5];B[eb]BL[60]OB[4]C[DaoLin [3d?]: even I can play it];W[db]WL[60]OW[5];B[fa]BL[60]OB[4]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: because you saw it beforeEmperial [2d]: where is tesuji];W[da]WL[60]OW[5]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: tesuji is l18 instead of k18];B[ea]BL[60]OB[4]C[DaoLin [3d?]: but I really wondered - the tesuji is one , but doesnt give a good pay-off. Who wants to crawl after all];W[nc]WL[60]OW[5];B[qf]BL[60]OB[4]C[DaoLin [3d?]: but 7d must have it at his sleeve - or not?];W[qn]WL[60]OW[5]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: it's not a move you see very oftenWarfreak2 [5d]: so many people haven't seen it i guessDaoLin [3d?]: that's why I recognize it Warfreak2 [5d]: also egogames has so far failed to impress me with his super 7d strengthRemember [1k]: but h14 feels more vital](;B[kq]BL[60]OB[4]C[RoseDuke [9d]: if white's corner get thick, then K4 is not a necessary move];W[iq]WL[60]OW[5]C[RoseDuke [9d]: this is a big move...RoseDuke [9d]: and if you enter to gain a weak group.. rather don't do that](;B[pr]BL[60]OB[4]C[RoseDuke [9d]: thne you shuoldn't play L3];W[nr]WL[60]OW[5]C[DaoLin [3d?]: ^^ anyway , doesnt happen often, and 7d would crush me on 4H with standard shapes ... :-)MXHero [-]: l18 tesuji is so coolTsuijin [1d]: warfreak ur standards are too highTsuijin [1d]: zchen is not reachableRemember [1k]: lolRoseDuke [9d]: should have played K3 insteadvfdvxz: what about q2 at p2](;B[oq]BL[60]OB[4]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: :>Remember [1k]: play me and i'll knock you back down :)];W[mp]WL[60]OW[5]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: i am allowed ambitionRoseDuke [9d]: only play against weaker opponent](;B[op]BL[60]OB[4];W[qq]WL[60]OW[5];B[mq]BL[60]OB[4];W[nq]WL[60]OW[5];B[np]BL[60]OB[4];W[lq]WL[60]OW[5];B[lp]BL[60]OB[4];W[mr]WL[60]OW[5];B[mo]BL[60]OB[4]C[wayward [1k]: quixotic ambition is valued on KGSwayward [1k]: DDKs want to become SDK; SDKs want to become dans; dans want to become high dans; high dans want tartrate to come back];W[kp]WL[60]OW[5]C[RoseDuke [9d]: Q2 is overplay];B[mq]BL[60]OB[4];W[ha]WL[60]OW[5]C[hurg [7k]: I thought everyone wanted Tartrate to come backTsuijin [1d]: he already didEmperial [2d]: i dont want that weakling hereAcademic [10k]: whos tartrate?fairwinds [8d?]: legendWarfreak2 [5d]: tartrate is the great old one of kgspebarefoot [-]: or did he really ????hurg [7k]: Elona ispouette [1d]: mysteriousEmperial [2d]: kgs only for strong playersWarfreak2 [5d]: like cthulhuJavaness [2d]: In the beginning there was dustAcademic [10k]: lolJavaness [2d]: then wms took the dust and fed it cookiesxDragon [8k?]: what if im a sdk who wants to be ddkColdreaver [2k]: can`t black just go g19?Warfreak2 [5d]: ofc b alive, it's just a ko threatwayward [1k]: he is trying to minimize future threats thereTigerbong [?]: Can anybody help me to get a rank?](;B[lr]BL[60]OB[3]C[Coldreaver [2k]: aJanekF [1d]: ignore!];W[ga]WL[60]OW[5]C[wayward [1k]: oh nice];B[ql]BL[60]OB[3]C[DaoLin [3d?]: tiger whats your rank?];W[qr]WL[60]OW[5]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: respond is very big at the top though, since b has b18 to kill the cornerkingbong [1k]: ohhWarfreak2 [5d]: with ko];B[gq]BL[60]OB[3]C[Tigerbong [?]: I don't know I will about 5d];W[fp]WL[60]OW[5]C[OohAah [7d]: 1000 years ko];B[gp]BL[60]OB[3]C[Tigerbong [?]: will be];W[go]WL[60]OW[5]C[MXHero [-]: i feel like w gained from that];B[ho]BL[60]OB[3]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: still a ko, which is worth something for b];W[hp]WL[60]OW[5]C[OohAah [7d]: actually with a16 it would be a direct kowayward [1k]: b18 was a ko still, right?jhnc [1k]: is it just that p2 is too small, or does it not work?OohAah [7d]: too smallDaoLin [3d?]: 10.000 years ko usually like seki - alive !wayward [1k]: the move here is g2 for Wwayward [1k]: I saw it in a review :)OohAah [7d]: but its blacks turn =X];B[ir]BL[60]OB[2]C[wayward [1k]: always something :(MXHero [-]: if w got another move pretty much anthing would be fine for w hehekingbong [1k]: j5];W[jr]WL[60]OW[5]C[Tigerbong [?]: Can any dan player help me to get a rank?OohAah [7d]: j5 creates a weak group near the super ponnukiVinata [5d]: why j2?];B[hr]BL[60]OB[2]C[OohAah [7d]: what else?Tigerbong [?]: Even gamevfdvxz: a16 b18 b19 ];W[jq]WL[60]OW[5]C[vanhala [10k]: why not H3?Vinata [5d]: g6 and j5 good enoughJavaness [2d]: what is your rank Tigerbong?Tigerbong [?]: around 5djysteel [1d]: find a rob first, tigherbong];B[er]BL[60]OB[2]C[xDragon [8k?]: probably impersonating tiger gong?];W[dr]WL[60]OW[5];B[fr]BL[60]OB[2];W[fq]WL[60]OW[5]C[Shana [3d]: whos that];B[gn]BL[60]OB[2]C[lolstarz [1d]: tigergong is a strong player in canada];W[fo]WL[60]OW[5];B[hq]BL[60]OB[2];W[ip]WL[60]OW[5];B[gs]BL[60]OB[2];W[kr]WL[60]OW[5]C[lolstarz [1d]: part of the reason we won the canada/us team matchxDragon [8k?]: i think hes still a youth too?lolstarz [1d]: i don't think sololstarz [1d]: but i've never met himShana [3d]: then u must be canadian...glint [-]: tigerbong. play GBpackermarsuplami [?]: ko?xDragon [8k?]: i thought he was still pretty younglolstarz [1d]: could be, i really don't knowRoseDuke [9d]: Q2 should be at O3Ptijoueur [1k]: a16 b18 b19 c19DaoLin [3d?]: Question: would the bL18 tesuji been bad for B?vfdvxz: a18 ];B[lq]BL[60]OB[2]C[DaoLin [3d?]: wL2 is endgame for later , with threat to left (should W escape out first) ? I will see ...lolstarz [1d]: but you might be thinking of another young player who is quite strong, but whose name i don't know how to spellTigerbong [?]: everybody refuse me];W[ls]WL[60]OW[5]C[Shana [3d]: start by playing botsJavaness [2d]: wait for High55 to log on thenDaoLin [3d?]: no one refuses you ... I have a ? myselfmarsuplami [?]: is that a trapxDragon [8k?]: pretty sur its tiger gong im thinking of. but yes its harder to get a game with no rankTigerbong [?]: or come to my setting];B[ko]BL[60]OB[2]C[Emperial [2d]: use automatchPwndawg [1d]: i knew itPwndawg [1d]: l6Pwndawg [1d]: l5OohAah [7d]: h6 ];W[hn]WL[60]OW[5]C[Pwndawg [1d]: toothpaste time?OohAah [7d]: j5 k5 j6 l6 m5 j7 h7 k6 h6 k4 ];B[rp]BL[60]OB[2]C[nuwanda [3k]: tiger, if you want to beat me up with 6h i can play you :)DaoLin [3d?]: so W got top (ko) + below = gamme over on their level?nuwanda [3k]: that would give you only 3d i'm afraid];W[io]WL[60]OW[5]C[xDragon [8k?]: well with automatch you can only set yourself up to 1kTigerbong [?]: okxDragon [8k?]: when you hav a ?Emperial [2d]: lol s4 kingbong [1k]: niceRoseDuke [8d]: S4????kingbong [1k]: answervanhala [10k]: why W not goJ5?Shana [3d]: probably time pressure is my guessZeNit [3d?]: Great reaction.marsuplami [?]: psychological stone];B[rn]BL[60]OB[2];W[qp]WL[60]OW[5]C[vanhala [10k]: Q6?DaoLin [3d?]: despite bN1, W can always live by wP2 (either connection or capture Q2)];B[ro]BL[60]OB[2];W[or]WL[60]OW[5]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: p1Ptijoueur [1k]: p2 p1 daolin];B[pn]BL[60]OB[2]C[DaoLin [3d?]: yes, but W no problemPtijoueur [1k]: can't make w livePtijoueur [1k]: (before)DaoLin [3d?]: P'tit joueur, mais si];W[oo]WL[60]OW[5]C[Ptijoueur [1k]: ben nonPtijoueur [1k]: p2 p1 et ensuite?DaoLin [3d?]: montre le mois , svpPtijoueur [1k]: dis oi plutot comment tu comptes connecter?Ptijoueur [1k]: p2 p1 et ?DaoLin [3d?]: wQ3 nN1 wQ1dtml2508 [5k]: b j16?];B[hf]BL[60]OB[2];W[id]WL[60]OW[5]C[Ptijoueur [1k]: et nL1DaoLin [3d?]: black can only break the connection to the left, but must give the Q2 stone, hence either life OR connection for W];B[on]BL[60]OB[2]C[Ptijoueur [1k]: o_OOohAah [7d]: q13 DaoLin [3d?]: thats why I thought 'W no problem'Ptijoueur [1k]: k3 dies in your sequence];W[ci]WL[60]OW[5]C[japan12k [4k?]: how does k3 die....DaoLin [3d?]: wK3 mort? mais non, pas du tout!Ptijoueur [1k]: before taking h5DaoLin [3d?]: c'mon?byeBafana [8k]: ptijoueur a du fumerPtijoueur [1k]: ...];B[di]BL[60]OB[2]C[japan12k [4k?]: ok but obviously k5 is takenjapan12k [4k?]: ...];W[dh]WL[60]OW[5]C[DaoLin [3d?]: bon sante alors !Ptijoueur [1k]: we talk about a sequence BEFORE j5japan12k [4k?]: thats like b lives up top thats if w didnt take g19skrood [5k]: not watching the same gamekostuek [-]: footballmarsuplami [?]: before J5 is soooooooooo old];B[ch]BL[60]OB[2]C[daniblitz [7k]: how can b cut white in bottom?Ptijoueur [1k]: my sequence is: p2 p1 q3 n1 q1 l1 ];W[dj]WL[60]OW[5];B[ei]BL[60]OB[2];W[ck]WL[60]OW[5]C[asdfyxcv [2k]: wasn't j5 played before p2?];B[ej]BL[60]OB[2]C[Ptijoueur [1k]: what is wrong with itPtijoueur [1k]: ?];W[cj]WL[60]OW[5]C[asdfyxcv [2k]: so altogether different situation];B[dl]BL[60]OB[2];W[bh]WL[60]OW[5];B[cg]BL[60]OB[2]C[lemuria [2d?]: its a pleasure to watch roseduke's game... it seem so calm];W[bm]WL[60]OW[5];B[nd]BL[60]OB[2]C[brooklyn [3d]: black gave up his top stones for next to nothing now that white is all connected];W[od]WL[60]OW[5];B[oe]BL[60]OB[2];W[oc]WL[60]OW[5];B[pc]BL[60]OB[2];W[pk]WL[60]OW[5];B[qk]BL[60]OB[2];W[pi]WL[60]OW[5]C[brooklyn [3d]: o11?];B[ni]BL[60]OB[2]C[brooklyn [3d]: wooo nailed it :)];W[of]WL[60]OW[5];B[ne]BL[60]OB[2];W[qg]WL[60]OW[5]C[skrood [5k]: must be a typical 3d mistakelemuria [2d?]: nice callEmperial [2d]: typical 8d mistake, good mvoe for 3dbrooklyn [3d]: wordminismurf [-]: still it is black under pressure to make enough points nowPtijoueur [1k]: typical 8d mistake seems weird];B[rf]BL[60]OB[2]C[lemuria [2d?]: its typical 5k frustrationishida1987 [7k]: xD];W[nj]WL[60]OW[5]C[ishida1987 [7k]: 7k we dont have opinion :DBadSanta [19k]: hello Olmerek [10k?]: :DEmperial [2d]: hibrooklyn [3d]: i agree, roseduke's game seems so calm and not at all rushedlemuria [2d?]: hello santa];B[mi]BL[60]OB[2]C[Kogokhan [1k]: typical 7k ignorance :)];W[oi]WL[60]OW[5]C[lolstarz [1d]: typical 7k blitz];B[qj]BL[60]OB[2];W[mj]WL[60]OW[5]C[lolstarz [1d]: i meant bliss, but okayishida1987 [7k]: Dx!!!!!velmu [-]: r10 chicken movekostuek [-]: typical kibitzskrood [5k]: meh. do hey turn off your sense of humor when you reach [2d?]?];B[lj]BL[60]OB[2]C[lolstarz [1d]: no, but 5k don't understand the jokes because they are about 1d mistakesBadSanta [19k]: whos winning ??];W[lk]WL[60]OW[5]C[Emperial [2d]: you arejpduke [6k]: no but you start to find complicated joseki amusing];B[li]BL[60]OB[2];W[ml]WL[60]OW[5]C[Cooked [1d]: b already lostbrooklyn [3d]: i think white is aheaddaniblitz [7k]: would cutting at p10 work instead of m10?rydberg [1d]: understatement :-)Remember [1k]: b failed];B[kk]BL[60]OB[2]C[Remember [1k]: he won that ko for nothing];W[kl]WL[60]OW[5];B[jl]BL[60]OB[2];W[km]WL[60]OW[5]C[skrood [5k]: lolstarz, 5k have been _making_ the jokes you're talking aboutbrooklyn [3d]: i think if he had cut at p10 then m10 for would be a double theat of netting the cutting stone or capturing the two stones above, daniblitzbrooklyn [3d]: hard read thoughBadSanta [19k]: b looking for a place to resign ? Cooked [1d]: b was very concerned by moyo, but w brutaly invaded ^^];B[jk]BL[60]OB[1]C[daniblitz [7k]: yeah I see thanks. But if b just connects w four stones still would make it hard for w and easier for b maybe :P rydberg [1d]: w has more up his sleevebrooklyn [3d]: should be like 10 point lead for W];W[nn]WL[60]OW[5]C[dtml2508 [5k]: W Q5?dtml2508 [5k]: Oh.uppsala [1k]: 10? seems more like 20 to mektheory [8k]: anybody else think that blacks pic looks like one of those photos taken at prom?rydberg [1d]: this will give at least s4jpduke [6k]: definitely a bit posey];B[no]BL[60]OB[1]C[brooklyn [3d]: ha thats a ridiculous photojpduke [6k]: more like at a beerkeller];W[po]WL[60]OW[5]C[BadSanta [19k]: more like homo-sexual adult erotica promotional picture Emperial [2d]: its timeDuskEagle [2k]: it looks like there's something wrong with his left (our right) eyeGenkimaru [?]: it would be sad if it was a prom pictureGenkimaru [?]: where's his date?japan12k [4k?]: res time?xDragon [8k?]: badsanta...];B[mn]BL[60]OB[1]C[jpduke [6k]: date = below picturejpduke [6k]: :)];W[nm]WL[60]OW[5];B[kn]BL[60]OB[1]C[Warfreak2 [5d]: if that's the promo i doubt they have many customersjpduke [6k]: no he said HOMO];W[pm]WL[60]OW[5]C[Vinata [5d]: c7 looks bigHoudini [1d]: thank youjpduke [6k]: ps ouch for whitepurpl3 [3k]: what?Analysis [3d]: w wins bigjpduke [6k]: in whites favour i meantegogames [7d]: thxBerodan [7k]: instead of q7, would w m6 have killed?purpl3 [3k]: nice plan roseRoseDuke [9d]: thxMrPopCorn [8k]: well played by whiteuppsala [1k]: this is 6k judgement of the positionPtijoueur [1k]: oh 9dAnalysis [3d]: 9d :XToge [1k]: 9d, congratslemuria [2d?]: congrats on 9d !RoseDuke [9d]: back to 9!subaru67 [5k]: ggbrooklyn [3d]: impressivedaniblitz [7k]: I don't think m6 killsRemember [1k]: not for longAlenchon [7k]: long live the Duke!Remember [1k]: lol just kiddingPtijoueur [1k]: lol remember])(;B[ia];W[mp];B[lo];W[kr]C[Emperial [2d]: ?????????Emperial [2d]: ?];B[ql]C[DaoLin [3d?]: sorry, Question bG19 1 threat less?Vinata [5d]: why not a16?RoseDuke [9d]: now even R2 is good for whiteRoseDuke [9d]: black didn' get anything here];W[qr]C[RoseDuke [9d]: if white want to fight, can also play Q8];B[om]C[Emperial [2d]: why b doesnt use a16666egogames [7d]: still better than the game.RoseDuke [9d]: the problem is Q2egogames [7d]: capture is too big on top.RoseDuke [9d]: yes..RoseDuke [9d]: but if you lose this ko, Remember [1k]: rematchvfdvxz: i join the a16 questionegogames [7d]: still has j16 later on.RoseDuke [9d]: you didn't get anything in returnegogames [7d]: the thickness became burden later on.Ptijoueur [1k]: a16 b18?RoseDuke [9d]: J16 is too remote]))(;B[qq];W[qp];B[nq];W[mq];B[or];W[mr];B[rp];W[ro](;B[rq]C[RoseDuke [9d]: no matter what black play in this corner, the exchange of L3 with J3 is a bad exchange])(;B[rr];W[sp];B[rq]C[egogames [7d]: agree.colorado [2d]: What is Jie Lie's ID and Dan?RoseDuke [9d]: also your group on top, isn't you too passive?egogames [7d]: get shield up is not good.])))(;B[nq]C[leipzig02 [?]: and he was never insei. studied by himselfRoseDuke [9d]: Q2 too far](;W[oq]C[DaoLin [3d?]: I just remembered the nick in association with pro strength and SA];B[or];W[mq];B[np];W[mr];B[mp];W[kr]C[DaoLin [3d?]: is THIS possible?RoseDuke [9d]: ??];B[lp])(;W[or]C[RoseDuke [9d]: P2egogames [7d]: ya, doesn't work.leipzig02 [?]: lee ki bong also but he is similar])))(;B[pq];W[oq];B[or](;W[pr];B[qq]C[RoseDuke [9d]: connect];W[qr];B[op]C[Ptijoueur [1k]: well ko right now good?];W[nq](;B[nr]C[RoseDuke [9d]: Q2 not need];W[qp])(;B[qp];W[po];B[nr];W[rr];B[mq];W[np]C[RoseDuke [9d]: just connect]))(;W[op];B[pr];W[nr];B[qp];W[qo];B[rp];W[mq]C[japan12k [4k?]: ouchRoseDuke [9d]: yesRoseDuke [9d]: this is bad for blackvfdvxz: rose, any comments on a16?]))(;B[nq];W[pr]C[egogames [7d]: doesn't like this either.];B[ko]C[leipzig02 [?]: i would call him a kid. he is a business man :-)egogames [7d]: ya, i guess that's doable.RoseDuke [9d]: see, this way atleast you have some aji in white's corner for future playsDaoLin [3d?]: I asked, as I do not know])(;B[ko]C[RoseDuke [9d]: but you cannot go to Q2 that faregogames [7d]: that's interesting.])(;B[or];W[pr];B[oq];W[pq]C[Remember [1k]: w gets corner... weak groupcolorado [2d]: Is RoseDuke Jie Lie?RoseDuke [9d]: then this is worse then simply play at Q3](;B[ip];W[hp];B[jp]C[leipzig02 [?]: no victor chow];W[ho];B[ir];W[hq]C[colorado [2d]: thx];B[op]C[egogames [7d]: well, thx for the review.RoseDuke [9d]: you made both white group solidDaoLin [3d?]: CN pro, living in SA, right?RoseDuke [9d]: and there is still probme in black's shape])(;B[op]C[leipzig02 [?]: not a proleipzig02 [?]: 7d ama])(;B[ko]C[egogames [7d]: probably the normal play.Remember [1k]: pro strength..colorado [2d]: I never heard of him at a USGO event?DaoLin [3d?]: emigrated almost-pro, insei kid?RoseDuke [9d]: if you play this jump.. why not just O3, then white Q2, then you play this move?minismurf [-]: SA is not in US ;)])))(;B[jq];W[lq]C[colorado [2d]: Who is Roseduke??];B[gq]C[RoseDuke [9d]: or play Q2 straight away])(;B[pr];W[nr];B[qq];W[qp];B[rr];W[nq];B[rp];W[ro];B[sp]C[daniblitz [7k]: I heard q2 was an outdated joseki and rarely used];W[qh]C[Remember [1k]: it has its placeRoseDuke [9d]: you get all cornnersegogames [7d]: another game then.egogames [7d]: noRoseDuke [9d]: there is also a problem in white's top right corneregogames [7d]: you have two corners.egogames [7d]: top left.RoseDuke [9d]: you got a ko thereegogames [7d]: it's a ko.RoseDuke [9d]: do you know?egogames [7d]: i know.RoseDuke [9d]: then white is owing w moveegogames [7d]: but it's a 2 step ko.RoseDuke [9d]: alternatively...egogames [7d]: waiting for ko threats.vfdvxz: what 2 stepRoseDuke [9d]: you should just play G13...RoseDuke [9d]: instead of invade white])(;B[gg]C[RoseDuke [9d]: aim at J16Cooked [1d]: can you show the ko pls ?egogames [7d]: not necessary sente.RoseDuke [9d]: if white defend, then you expand side];W[jp]C[RoseDuke [9d]: in stead of J15];B[id];W[pb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: if white don't.. then you can attack from J16egogames [7d]: not that ibg.RoseDuke [9d]: true, not nowRoseDuke [9d]: after K4, then you enter white's corner is niceRoseDuke [9d]: then Q3 or something similar make senseegogames [7d]: hmm.japan12k [4k?]: b19 b18 a18 ko me thinksegogames [7d]: i still think the split is bigger.]))(;B[eb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: this end up in huge fight](;W[fa](;B[ga]C[japan12k [4k?]: lol];W[gc];B[ea];W[fb];B[fa];W[gd];B[fb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: no!!!];W[hb])(;B[gc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: if white F19, then you connet at G17RoseDuke [9d]: then white has to defend corner](;W[jc];B[db];W[cb];B[ga]C[RoseDuke [9d]: then you get the hane or jumpRoseDuke [9d]: then white is in trouble])(;W[db];B[kc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: so white cannot play F19, but play at G17egogames [7d]: ya, you are right.RoseDuke [9d]: this is a very complicated josekiegogames [7d]: missed this move, hahaRoseDuke [9d]: but white will not play F19RoseDuke [9d]: white will play at G17])))(;W[gc];B[fa];W[gd];B[fb]C[japan12k [4k?]: lol];W[hb];B[db];W[cb];B[ic];W[ib];B[jb];W[jc];B[id]C[RoseDuke [9d]: the actual joseki is still much longer];W[kb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: so far all rightRoseDuke [9d]: for blackRoseDuke [9d]: and lead to an more equal result](;B[jd];W[kc];B[hf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: normally black sacrifice a big group, to gain tremenderous thickness in centre];W[ie];B[je];W[ff];B[fg];W[eg];B[df];W[gg];B[fh];W[gf];B[hh];W[if];B[hg]C[RoseDuke [9d]: L17 is bad move for white...];W[he];B[jf];W[ig];B[jh];W[ih];B[ii];W[gh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: no!!!!RoseDuke [9d]: slow down])(;B[kc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: now M14])(;B[lf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: sorryRoseDuke [9d]: H14\RoseDuke [9d]: typo])(;B[hf]C[Uberdude [2d?]: what if 3-4];W[ff];B[fg]C[RoseDuke [9d]: F13];W[eg];B[df];W[gg];B[fh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: actually this is the research result from the chinese national team];W[gf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: M12RoseDuke [9d]: H12];B[hh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: keep on typo the same key](;W[ie];B[jd]C[RoseDuke [9d]: play all the way untill white play L17](;W[je];B[kd]C[RoseDuke [9d]: there is a funny issue in the corner as well];W[kc];B[ke]C[japan12k [4k?]: doesnt b gain too much here?];W[jg]C[kostuek [-]: that joseki crazyRoseDuke [9d]: now black play sente at G12];B[gh]C[DaoLin [3d?]: ... bL12 ?japan12k [4k?]: h15?RoseDuke [9d]: not possible](;W[kf];B[hg];W[he];B[jf];W[if];B[ig];W[jf];B[lf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: ???];W[jh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: L14??])(;W[he]C[OohAah [7d]: j13 japan12k [4k?]: should j13OohAah [7d]: betterRoseDuke [9d]: now black play L14];B[kf];W[kg]C[japan12k [4k?]: deadRoseDuke [9d]: now D19RoseDuke [9d]: white's corner dead];B[da]C[RoseDuke [9d]: white lost immediatelyegogames [7d]: hahaegogames [7d]: that's very tricky.RoseDuke [9d]: black get left side, big territory, big corner, central group is not weak..RoseDuke [9d]: because white's L17 is the losing moveegogames [7d]: nice joseki.RoseDuke [9d]: L17 has to play at K19]))(;W[ja]C[RoseDuke [9d]: that is rightRoseDuke [9d]: now black L17RoseDuke [9d]: white dead](;B[je];W[ig];B[kc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: no!!!];W[jb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: not K15])(;B[kc];W[jb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: K15, and white now white has two choices..RoseDuke [9d]: connect here is one..RoseDuke [9d]: now connect at G12](;B[je](;W[if]C[RoseDuke [9d]: now white deadRoseDuke [9d]: white has to start from left];B[hg];W[he];B[jg];W[jf];B[kf];W[ke];B[kd];W[kg];B[lf];W[ig];B[jh])(;W[gh];B[gi];W[fi];B[eh];W[hi];B[gj];W[hg];B[ih];W[ig];B[jg];W[jh];B[ii];W[jf];B[kg];W[kd];B[ke];W[kf];B[le];W[ji];B[ij];W[lg]C[OohAah [7d]: l16 ~_~OohAah [7d]: cmon manOohAah [7d]: l16 at l15 ladderRoseDuke [9d]: this is not good for blacksubaru67 [5k]: =)RoseDuke [9d]: the problem is K15egogames [7d]: 40 moves joseki :)RoseDuke [9d]: move longer]))(;B[gh];W[je];B[kd];W[he]C[RoseDuke [9d]: L15];B[ke];W[jg](;B[lb])(;B[da]C[RoseDuke [9d]: L14])(;B[kf](;W[ig])(;W[da];B[jf];W[ig];B[if];W[hg];B[kh];W[ca];B[kg];W[ea]C[RoseDuke [9d]: that is right];B[ih];W[ga]C[OohAah [7d]: dont j12 RoseDuke [9d]: big center for blackegogames [7d]: hahaegogames [7d]: finally.japan12k [4k?]: very long josekiknupsi [4d]: j12 looks aji keshiRoseDuke [9d]: this is also showed that white made an error somewhere on the line...RoseDuke [9d]: so you can see...RoseDuke [9d]: white has to play G12...]))))))(;W[gh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: Now G 12];B[gi]C[RoseDuke [9d]: white's L17 has to play at K19 to kill black];W[fi];B[eh]C[RoseDuke [9d]: and they got an conclusion...];W[hi];B[gj];W[hg];B[ih];W[ig]C[RoseDuke [9d]: yes...now black play at K16](;B[jg];W[jh];B[ii];W[jd];B[ie];W[jf];B[kg];W[je]C[RoseDuke [9d]: back back])(;B[jd]C[RoseDuke [9d]: showing black cannot win...](;W[kc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: now K13];B[jg];W[jh];B[ii];W[jf];B[kg];W[ie]C[RoseDuke [9d]: now D19 kill corner](;B[ja]C[RoseDuke [9d]: D19, not K19])(;B[da]C[RoseDuke [9d]: this is good for blackegogames [7d]: it is RoseDuke [9d]: because white's L17 is not good]))(;W[ja];B[kc](;W[jb];B[jg];W[jh];B[ii];W[jf];B[kg];W[ie]C[RoseDuke [9d]: connect at L16];B[kd];W[kf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: M14];B[lf];W[lg];B[kh];W[le];B[mf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: N17RoseDuke [9d]: white can only play connect](;W[ke];B[mc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: white can only connect then push oputRoseDuke [9d]: N15 now];W[me]C[RoseDuke [9d]: O14];B[nf]C[RoseDuke [9d]: O15];W[ne]C[RoseDuke [9d]: P14];B[of]C[RoseDuke [9d]: O17];W[nc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: M18];B[lb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: D19];W[da]C[RoseDuke [9d]: every move must be precise hereRoseDuke [9d]: P17](;B[nb];W[oc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: else someone is lost immediatelyRoseDuke [9d]: never O18];B[pb])(;B[oc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: O18];W[nb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: black must play P18](;B[nd];W[md]C[RoseDuke [9d]: no!!!])(;B[ob](;W[nd]C[RoseDuke [9d]: white N18])(;W[mb]C[RoseDuke [9d]: now black penuki at K11 and complete this josekidaniblitz [7k]: b finally tenuki?](;B[la]C[RoseDuke [9d]: is white play N16 then N19RoseDuke [9d]: black just dead];W[md];B[ma])(;B[ji]C[DaoLin [3d?]: is this still in books ? !!! (or knowledge from earlier extended commentaries?)RoseDuke [9d]: yes, this kills all aji in centreUberdude [2d?]: w p7!DaoLin [3d?]: Über-influence OohAah [7d]: couldnt black exchange m19 before p18 ?RoseDuke [9d]: black sacrificed over 50 pointsegogames [7d]: trade big wall for 50 points.RoseDuke [9d]: and get a big wall in centreRoseDuke [9d]: with half of a board filled with stonesRoseDuke [9d]: this is a good opennig against strong opponentsUberdude [2d?]: b got left points tooRoseDuke [9d]: as you have already played half a board in more or less eual resultegogames [7d]: i will pick the wall any time :)RoseDuke [9d]: well...RoseDuke [9d]: I will pick the wall as welldaniblitz [7k]: problem is when stronger opponent doesn't follow joseki :)RoseDuke [9d]: this is actually quite forcing josekijapan12k [4k?]: if they dont follow they will be at lossUberdude [2d?]: what is your feeling fir w move now?egogames [7d]: one way street.RoseDuke [9d]: not much alternatives for white to exitRoseDuke [9d]: unless he want to end up inferiorOohAah [7d]: r9 now imoegogames [7d]: thx RoseDuke, you are the man.RoseDuke [9d]: now I am not sure what white play.. too many choices..glint [-]: RoseDuke, you can ctrl-click the point on the board to put the co-ordinate into chatRoseDuke [9d]: my student is a HK 3~4dan amateurRoseDuke [9d]: and she can make a pro-5dan to play into this resultRoseDuke [9d]: hahaRoseDuke [9d]: what can the pro do? OohAah [7d]: wellkostuek [-]: resignegogames [7d]: it's all forced.OohAah [7d]: first you must get into the f17 positionegogames [7d]: this position is quite common.RoseDuke [9d]: maybe one possible exit for white is at K18, instead of connect, white can choose to keep the ko fight alive and play in centreUberdude [2d?]: q16 is important?egogames [7d]: i think most high dan players will fall for it.])))))(;W[me]C[OohAah [7d]: j14 RoseDuke [9d]: now white fall into an trapRoseDuke [9d]: if white play this move..RoseDuke [9d]: K15 kills];B[je]C[daniblitz [7k]: cleverRoseDuke [9d]: this will be awlsome to playRoseDuke [9d]: hahaRoseDuke [9d]: big trapegogames [7d]: hmmUberdude [2d?]: gogo empty triangleegogames [7d]: that's right.])(;W[lc];B[ld];W[md];B[mc]C[RoseDuke [9d]: then black jump to N17not possible for white]))(;W[jh]C[daniblitz [7k]: that is cool roseduke, thanks for showing us this I will learn this one and it's variations looks like fun!RoseDuke [9d]: hence they abandoned itDaoLin [3d?]: guaibudene !egogames [7d]: haha, there is always a counter.RoseDuke [9d]: I am not sure what is the exact reason.. but from my analysis, this is good for black!RoseDuke [9d]: guess I am still too weak compare to the prosChina1D [6d]: RoseDuke 9d?China1D [6d]: wowRoseDuke [9d]: but this ko at this stage, can easily won by blackChina1D [6d]: Duke h3 game?RoseDuke [9d]: white don't have much ko threatRoseDuke [9d]: if black win's the ko, white's corner dies as wellChina1D [6d]: b will win koRoseDuke [9d]: anyway..China1D [6d]: Duke, h3RoseDuke [9d]: see you all other timesRoseDuke [9d]: I need to sleep nowRoseDuke [9d]: bye everyoneChina1D [6d]: come Dukeglint [-]: thx Victor :)Uberdude [2d?]: thanks for lessonsilver2k4 [?]: byeChina1D [6d]: set a game for yaRoseDuke [9d]: I only play handicap games in teaching..RoseDuke [9d]: byeChina1D [6d]: hahaChina1D [6d]: ok]))))))))