(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[600]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]PW[Cornel]PB[soulmate]WR[7단]BR[6단]DT[2007-06-21]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Cornel [7d]: Hi, have a nice gamesoulmate [6d]: hi]RE[W+Resign];B[qd]BL[592.651];W[dc]WL[596.459];B[dp]BL[586.773];W[qq]WL[594.021];B[de]BL[574.1];W[od]WL[590.636];B[oc]BL[567.729];W[nc]WL[583.326];B[pc]BL[565.531];W[cg]WL[581.343];B[cc]BL[559.338];W[cb]WL[577.896];B[cd]BL[556.534];W[gc]WL[576.925];B[eg]BL[552.157];W[cj]WL[575.217];B[eb]BL[549.631];W[db]WL[572.847];B[ec]BL[544.497];W[ed]WL[572.076];B[dd]BL[540.769];W[fc]WL[556.005]C[kukulis4 [1d]: ladder fawors white];B[cf]BL[529.139];W[ee]WL[550.143];B[dg]BL[519.337];W[cm]WL[547.331]C[kukulis4 [1d]: before C14 :]];B[bb]BL[511.991];W[fb]WL[544.21];B[ca]BL[504.878];W[ea]WL[541.661];B[gq]BL[497.884];W[bp]WL[538.285]C[Tellwell [3k]: ^^];B[mc]BL[487.886];W[pj]WL[530.315]C[darkstill [?]: if the real beautiful game comes out only on large boards why is it that there are hardly any games above 19x19? aren't they worth being played or just take too long?];B[qh]BL[453.388]C[kukulis4 [1d]: for learningSeeguu [4k]: you know when you trykukulis4 [1d]: :]];W[np]WL[521.425]C[darkstill [?]: i guess so : )kukulis4 [1d]: its always nice to watch cornels hames when he play tenukikukulis4 [1d]: games*];B[pl]BL[419.421]C[darkstill [?]: i mean historically speaking has there always been this size or were there other sizes established before?];W[oi]WL[517.592]C[tomatoz [7k]: what does hame mean?wanchan [2k]: 19x19 has been used so much it's the obvious choiceTellwell [3k]: hames = gamesmaproom [3k]: Tibet used to use 17x17Elandal [4k]: 17x17 was used before. But that was quite long ago.HikoNyan [3d]: 38*38,it took 3hours and not so interestinggorillazz [4d]: 19*19 = 361Tellwell [3k]: miswrote];B[qo]BL[393.973];W[pp]WL[515.091]C[royu [5d]: green eggs and hamegorillazz [4d]: 360+1 it s symboliqdarkstill [?]: ah ok I seeKawaiiNeko [1k?]: 38*38 is very interesting...~wanchan [2k]: yep 361 is an important number in chinese stuffTiesto [1d]: 19x19 has a good balance between the center and the sidesdarkstill [?]: understabledarkstill [?]: bly*];B[nl]BL[346.089];W[pg]WL[509.661]C[darkstill [?]: thanks for the information :) you enlightened me];B[ph]BL[330.364];W[oh]WL[507.783];B[og]BL[329.063];W[ql]WL[502.624]C[topsecret [5d?]: 361 nealry like days a year];B[qk]BL[318.739]C[Seeguu [4k]: ^^'];W[pk]WL[498.943];B[qj]BL[316.557];W[ng]WL[496.053];B[of]BL[314.023]C[celiblanco [1d]: if its nearly it has no meaningdarkstill [?]: one more question if i may be so rudekukulis4 [1d]: another time quiver potion of enlightenment];W[qi]WL[483.118]C[darkstill [?]: hahakukulis4 [1d]: ;]darkstill [?]: very much undeed];B[ri]BL[296.929];W[pi]WL[475.854]C[darkstill [?]: how come people prefer the japenese rule setting?];B[rh]BL[290.758]C[wayward [2k]: this is basically wrong, what Black does];W[rl]WL[473.39]C[wayward [2k]: you cut first and think later];B[rk]BL[283.318]C[darkstill [?]: i mean this game has been modified by the japanese];W[sk]WL[471.476]C[slayde [10k?]: ^^];B[rj]BL[281.322];W[pm]WL[460.312]C[darkstill [?]: but is it preferable to play the japenese system?];B[ol]BL[277.989]C[wanchan [2k]: i hate chinese and aga counting... so much to count];W[rn]WL[453.849]C[Elandal [4k]: not everyone, darkstill. Lots of people play using Japanese rules because go was introduced to western world via Japan.kukulis4 [1d]: darkstill: japanese clear ruleset and fastest end of the games wayward [2k]: Japanese counting is much easier once you know how to play];B[nj]BL[253.846];W[nf]WL[451.26];B[pf]BL[250.676]C[kevinwm [4k?]: Japanese is more elegant too - encourages minimum stones to make structures live.wayward [2k]: Japanese counting utilizes some game concepts to remove the burden of counting every stone and every point];W[mh]WL[435.453]C[kevinwm [4k?]: Fits the difference between Japanese and Chinese cultures.wayward [2k]: that toodarkstill [?]: ah i see - the elegant universe then... :)kevinwm [4k?]: Japan smaller, fewer people, must make the best use of all resources.];B[kj]BL[227.757]C[kevinwm [4k?]: China can just throw massive numbers at a problem :-)slayde [10k?]: lolHikoNyan [3d]: but bent four in corner, I prefer chinesewayward [2k]: Japan = beautifulSeeguu [4k]: like whaling?greentea [5k]: lovely baby];W[jh]WL[424.705]C[darkstill [?]: hahaSeeguu [4k]: :Dwayward [2k]: Cornel flaunts his babykevinwm [4k?]: "Stones" are expendable....TotoroShan [2d]: what does " bent " mean ?wayward [2k]: Michael Jackson did that oncedarkstill [?]: but does it affect your way of playing alot?Elandal [4k]: There are lots of problems with Japanese rules. Chinese rules are more clear in many ways.royu [5d]: if anyone thinks japanese is easier to count than chinese, you don't understand the full utility of chinese scoringHikoNyan [3d]: you dont know bent four?];B[lp]BL[188.984]C[wayward [2k]: I think Japanese is easier to countElandal [4k]: But few of the issues come up in games - they are mostly quite rare.wayward [2k]: what am I missing?];W[md]WL[416.139]C[TotoroShan [2d]: i know bent four, but i don't know what " bent " mean ];B[nb]BL[181.895];W[lc]WL[414.739];B[nd]BL[177.618];W[ne]WL[414.023]C[kevinwm [4k?]: Yes bent-4 is complicated.darkstill [?]: I guess to some people the chinese rules system is more appealing because it fits more to their concept of playing and vice versa...kukulis4 [1d]: white building a big moyo];B[lb]BL[154.075];W[nc]WL[412.227]C[celiblanco [1d]: why not o18?];B[mb]BL[151.442];W[ij]WL[409.413]C[jantiff [-]: to bend, bent, bentTiesto [1d]: i was thinking that too, peep and cut for blackTiesto [1d]: n16Tiesto [1d]: etcroyu [5d]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseCountingExample waywardwayward [2k]: thanks royu];B[oo]BL[121.69]C[celiblanco [1d]: probabably];W[po]WL[403.789]C[royu [5d]: you only have to count one side and you know the winner, based on size of boardceliblanco [1d]: perhaps o18 would have been a overplaykevinwm [4k?]: In Chinese rules, scores always add up to 361. Only have to count 1 player.Tiesto [1d]: maybedarkstill [?]: thanks a bunch @ royu! :; )];B[no]BL[100.671]C[Tiesto [1d]: hard for me to decide in a minute];W[jq]WL[396.327]C[ContreX [8k]: where is white moyo ?greentea [5k]: and chinese rules are more rationalceliblanco [1d]: :)greentea [5k]: think about sekiElandal [4k]: you forgot komi, kevinwm :)Obotchaman [2k?]: soulmate no 6d];B[jo]BL[73.055]C[royu [5d]: yeah, my bias is strongly in favor of chinese rules as wellgreentea [5k]: two stones and eight stones sekiroyu [5d]: most elegant imo*];W[hp]WL[381.453];B[hq]BL[68.551];W[ip]WL[378.971]C[greentea [5k]: in japa rules they are no points];B[hn]BL[62.817];W[gp]WL[377.34];B[fp]BL[60.252];W[fo]WL[375.301];B[ep]BL[56.751];W[gn]WL[373.893]C[greentea [5k]: but chinese rules ,live stones are counted];B[hm]BL[52.124];W[cq]WL[371.568];B[dr]BL[44.796];W[mp]WL[368.277]C[Seeguu [4k]: same with AGA i presume];B[mo]BL[34.159]C[kate: interesting];W[lq]WL[365.947];B[kp]BL[31.293]C[celiblanco [1d]: is this an easy win for w?];W[kq]WL[362.777];B[ik]BL[29.005];W[hk]WL[359.663]C[Elandal [4k]: AGA can be counted either territory or area.];B[jk]BL[26.32]C[darkstill [?]: i mean is the overall concept of ying - yang not better addressed in the chinese rules setting than in the japanese version of it?];W[kc]WL[357.719];B[gg]BL[13.767];W[ir]WL[337.699]C[HikoNyan [3d]: not easy but w aheadSeeguu [4k]: outcome is the same in them all, winner is the one with most points :D];B[cr]BL[10.467];W[br]WL[335.041];B[dq]BL[30]OB[5]C[Joki [2d]: for online playing, chinese rules are fine, but i imagine it cumbersome to use them for real playing];W[co]WL[330.634]C[wanchan [2k]: never having used chinese counting, i'm curious how to gauge score mid-game. in territory counting only the potential territories have to be visualized, but with chinese counting you have to look at all the dame too?Tiesto [1d]: yeah, o18 doesnt look possible at all, even if the stones could live they would have to craw to f18 stonesceliblanco [1d]: centre north area mostly dames?];B[fr]BL[30]OB[5];W[hr]WL[328.112];B[gr]BL[30]OB[5];W[hl]WL[323.971];B[il]BL[30]OB[5];W[fg]WL[321.279];B[fh]BL[30]OB[5];W[ff]WL[319.903];B[gi]BL[30]OB[5];W[eh]WL[315.596]C[goseki [3d]: by norh you mean left];B[ch]BL[30]OB[5]C[goseki [3d]: ?darkstill [?]: i need to read more books - but time is the problemHikoNyan [3d]: when they count , chinese player count same as japanese];W[hh]WL[305.261]C[celiblanco [1d]: now not dames];B[gh]BL[30]OB[5]C[XiaXia [1k]: what rules are used in international tournaments?ContreX [8k]: h10 not good cut ?darkstill [?]: heck! i need to start reading go related books ];W[jj]WL[288.038]C[ContreX [8k]: no more XDoffcolour [7k]: don't read, just playHikoNyan [3d]: depends on where it playeddarkstill [?]: i dont know any of the expressions your using lol];B[ei]BL[30]OB[5];W[kk]WL[283.779];B[kl]BL[30]OB[5];W[lk]WL[279.161];B[lj]BL[30]OB[5]C[wayward [2k]: surely you must mean "of your using"];W[im]WL[277.518]C[Tiesto [1d]: we just make them up as we gojantiff [-]: center b mostly dame ^^];B[jl]BL[30]OB[5];W[ll]WL[268.946]C[offcolour [7k]: nothing mysterious about jap wordsjewbacca [6k]: :Ogreentea [5k]: ?wayward [2k]: undone](;B[jn]BL[30]OB[5]C[Seiseki [6k]: ?HikoNyan [3d]: jesesgoseki [3d]: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!soulmate [6d]: thanjs];W[lm]WL[264.995]C[Cornel [7d]: no probContreX [8k]: should have been miss clickStoepsel [-]: l6wayward [2k]: misthinkContreX [8k]: such a mistake can't happen at that lvl];B[km]BL[30]OB[5]C[wayward [2k]: but it does];W[mj]WL[257.097]C[wayward [2k]: even at pro leveljantiff [-]: this is not much better for bJoki [2d]: misclick most likelykukulis4 [1d]: black K7 was better than black K6 may be];B[mi]BL[30]OB[5]C[offcolour [7k]: dans are human];W[mk]WL[254.362]C[darkstill [?]: make them up as you go heh? :)celiblanco [1d]: w's won anywayOops [1d]: o11?vale91 [8k]: sure];B[ni]BL[30]OB[5];W[li]WL[251.754]C[HikoNyan [3d]: k6 better,i thinkOops [1d]: oh];B[ki]BL[30]OB[5];W[lh]WL[248.835];B[ln]BL[30]OB[5]C[Tellwell [3k]: time ot resign?Tellwell [3k]: to];W[mm]WL[240.134]C[goseki [3d]: boomwayward [2k]: whoopsie daisy];B[om]BL[30]OB[5];W[pn]WL[236.802]C[Seeguu [4k]: o9 first would have been betterSeeguu [4k]: :P];B[nm]BL[30]OB[5];W[nh]WL[231.701];B[nk]BL[30]OB[5];W[kh]WL[228.241];B[bi]BL[30]OB[5];W[bj]WL[225.427]C[wayward [2k]: Cornel > Chuck Norris];B[aj]BL[30]OB[5];W[ak]WL[223.863]C[JeonJiHyun [2k]: First when, Seeguu?];B[ai]BL[30]OB[5];W[ci]WL[223.041]C[Seeguu [4k]: before m6];B[gm]BL[30]OB[5];W[bh]WL[219.575]C[ContreX [8k]: e 9 or f9 don't invade white potential territory?goseki [3d]: chuck norris?goseki [3d]: who's thatjantiff [-]: wake up b];B[bg]BL[30]OB[5]C[wayward [2k]: exactly, goseki :)];W[ah]WL[214.404];B[hj]BL[30]OB[5]C[greentea [5k]: faint];W[hi]WL[212.483];B[gj]BL[30]OB[5];W[hg]WL[211.695];B[gf]BL[30]OB[5];W[hf]WL[210.475];B[fe]BL[30]OB[5]C[kukulis4 [1d]: chuck norris - superhero of USA];W[ge]WL[205.304]C[goseki [3d]: who's chuck noris?];B[ef]BL[30]OB[5]C[goseki [3d]: i want to know =-Ojewbacca [6k]: me];W[kb]WL[202.81]C[kukulis4 [1d]: super hero of USAkishambo [5k]: white got a good resultwayward [2k]: was discovered and taught by superhero of Chinawayward [2k]: one Bruce Leejewbacca [6k]: muhaha];B[op]BL[30]OB[5]C[goseki [3d]: ok.....jewbacca [6k]: just he is stronger];W[oq]WL[200.421];B[dl]BL[30]OB[5]C[kukulis4 [1d]: who ?wayward [2k]: Lee, naturally];W[ej]WL[190.832]C[kukulis4 [1d]: loljewbacca [6k]: chucky];B[cl]BL[30]OB[5];W[bl]WL[188.787];B[dm]BL[30]OB[5];W[dn]WL[187.534];B[en]BL[30]OB[5];W[fk]WL[184.898]C[kukulis4 [1d]: lets rise lee from death and make him fight chuck norris ;]];B[gk]BL[30]OB[5];W[fl]WL[183.289]C[wayward [2k]: ever seen Path of the Dragon?  Norris gets kicked.];B[gl]BL[30]OB[5]C[JeonJiHyun [2k]: That is the youngest 7d I have seenjantiff [-]: of courseTellwell [3k]: lol];W[fd]WL[170.297]C[jewbacca [6k]: noway, lee is afraid =)  c n is a superherokukulis4 [1d]: loldarkstill [?]: how old is cornel?Joki [2d]: must be genetic, being born as 7d ^ ^];B[bs]BL[30]OB[5]C[jewbacca [6k]: :D];W[di]WL[166.593]C[kukulis4 [1d]: lee is about 30 yearskukulis4 [1d]: sorryjantiff [-]: Chuck kills himself after humiliation by Brucekukulis4 [1d]: cornel is about 30 yearsDerrida [6k]: e7darkstill [?]: ah thanksoffcolour [7k]: you all have too much time on your handsCornel [7d]: thank you soulmate [6d]: thankssoulmate [6d]: pretty badsoulmate [6d]: some stupid movesbobstep [6k]: wasn't prettyCornel [7d]: :)])(;B[kn]BL[30]OB[5];W[km]WL[266.961]C[TotoroShan [2d]: lolgoseki [3d]: 11!!!!!!!jantiff [-]: heheheheXiaXia [1k]: ?]))