(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]SO[gokifu.com]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[600]OT[5x40 byo-yomi]PW[bigben79]PB[Hutoshi4]WR[8단]BR[8단]DT[2011-06-16]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Hutoshi4 [8d]: hibigben79 [8d]: hi gg]RE[B+Resign];B[pd]BL[592.151]C[ManOfLOL [6k]: :o];W[dp]WL[596.291];B[qp]BL[588.805]C[shinigami [5d]: :0];W[dc]WL[587.238];B[fq]BL[582.353];W[cn]WL[574.447];B[lq]BL[571.758]C[shinigami [5d]: micro ftw];W[qf]WL[561.914]C[shinigami [5d]: r11!];B[qi]BL[565.18]C[shinigami [5d]: YESManOfLOL [6k]: youre all hyped up shinigami];W[nd]WL[548.884]C[shinigami [5d]: o16, do itttttttGlasses [3d]: ?ManOfLOL [6k]: had too much apples?shinigami [5d]: yes!Neurotrash [10k]: why was that such a good move];B[pf]BL[558.522]C[shinigami [5d]: r15!!shinigami [5d]: noooshinigami [5d]: nooooooooo];W[qc]WL[544.469];B[pc]BL[555.487]C[Eowyn [1k]: lolManOfLOL [6k]: lolshinigami [5d]: hutoshi...Eowyn [1k]: q13 ];W[pg]WL[530.621]C[shinigami [5d]: he plays on tygem, how does he not know of r15shinigami [5d]: insanity];B[qe]BL[550.372];W[of]WL[517.997]C[Crimewave [14k]: bigben has an epic info];B[pe]BL[545.499];W[rg]WL[516.712]C[Neurotrash [10k]: what is tygem];B[og]BL[541.633];W[ph]WL[514.686];B[rf]BL[540.449];W[qh]WL[506.136]C[shinigami [5d]: r11 is only played now-a-days for r15... you fail me hutoshiEowyn [1k]: this is also joseki up to now];B[nf]BL[529.973]C[Eowyn [1k]: s15 ];W[ri]WL[490.501]C[blonge: this is terabad for wBushworm [2d]: goooo huto!];B[qg]BL[501.416];W[ql]WL[483.134]C[varsan [3d]: I don't think this is josekiGlasses [3d]: :))];B[oh]BL[487.135]C[shinigami [5d]: this is deviation cause W has to consider entire board, not just this corner];W[oi]WL[468.697];B[ni]BL[480.707];W[oj]WL[463.21]C[Eowyn [1k]: well sometime this is played by high dans of kgsManOfLOL [6k]: this is common on tygem];B[nj]BL[451.577]C[varsan [3d]: too bad for white. not joseki];W[ok]WL[436.429];B[nk]BL[446.805]C[Bushworm [2d]: maybe w will be able to pounce into the micro on bottom];W[nl]WL[427.157]C[Eowyn [1k]: too bad? i don't think so];B[ml]BL[430.283]C[Goreon [2d]: w's strength is tactics, not the opening?varsan [3d]: tooooooooooooooooooo bad];W[qf]WL[405.158]C[Bushworm [2d]: huto always feels like the favorite to win];B[jc]BL[405.447];W[je]WL[389.007];B[hd]BL[399.006]C[RobinUpton [4d?]: o12 any merit?];W[re]WL[358.591]C[varsan [3d]: I have no idea suspending O7shinigami [5d]: not yet];B[qg]BL[369.158]C[ummjhall [15k]: why o12? for white?Goreon [2d]: t14 not good enough?Bushworm [2d]: b would be happy to eat o8RobinUpton [4d?]: o12 O13 n12 helps W by cutting B];W[nh]WL[308.937]C[koticgood [4k]: just a cut to make use of p14 ummjhall];B[oe]BL[362.219];W[qf]WL[307.134]C[shinigami [5d]: h14poirette [-]: o7?ummjhall [15k]: ah, ok];B[if]BL[320.294];W[sf]WL[295.857]C[shinigami [5d]: wow];B[de]BL[315.05];W[ce]WL[294.035];B[cf]BL[309.342];W[cd]WL[292.31];B[df]BL[307.627]C[Epiphany [-]: Nice, shinigamishinigami [5d]: i want to see how W handles this center];W[kc]WL[288.258]C[kgs1d [1k]: I thought bigben79 was 9d beforeshinigami [5d]: kgs seems to have gotten harderGoreon [2d]: yes];B[kb]BL[269.158]C[Bushworm [2d]: overall i think your rightshinigami [5d]: W o18 is the aim];W[qb]WL[274.221]C[Goreon [2d]: to me it seems a long way until 9dBushworm [2d]: i think darkmage improved his game alot over the yearsshinigami [5d]: r18... weird];B[pb]BL[239.569]C[Goreon [2d]: r18 bluffshinigami [5d]: B will win IMO];W[ng]WL[253.386]C[shinigami [5d]: lol];B[of]BL[229.813]C[shinigami [5d]: this is so speculative];W[lg]WL[249.982]C[RobinUpton [4d?]: r18 threaten p18 follow up and attack Q15 maybeshinigami [5d]: well he played r18 to get o13varsan [3d]: Hutoshi is good at this kind of battlegrooviest [5k]: w has read as far as move 108shinigami [5d]: his aim is clear, but does it work for him, that's the question];B[lh]BL[197.858];W[mi]WL[246.901];B[lj]BL[172.29];W[lb]WL[216.604];B[kd]BL[154.459];W[lc]WL[201.893];B[jd]BL[152.738];W[jb]WL[190.773]C[Goreon [2d]: offer];B[ib]BL[149.586];W[ka]WL[189.635]C[shinigami [5d]: tradetwisted [1k]: seems too good for wshinigami [5d]: no it's fine];B[ld]BL[115.146]C[grooviest [5k]: m14?grooviest [5k]: doh];W[nb]WL[183.535]C[shinigami [5d]: black still has tons of center potentialshinigami [5d]: W has merely lived a small life on topshinigami [5d]: in gote];B[cl]BL[89.068]C[Goreon [2d]: c8 huge];W[fo]WL[177.18]C[varsan [3d]: n13 to make solid centershinigami [5d]: n13 is super slowGoreon [2d]: w afraid of moyo];B[nm]BL[74.263];W[ol]WL[175.105];B[mm]BL[73.441]C[Glasses [3d]: 8dan can reduce the center in no timeGlasses [3d]: @.@CBlue [1d?]: b seems aheadshinigami [5d]: ya i still like B];W[gq]WL[156.57]C[shinigami [5d]: B still hass bottom potential and massive center potential];B[gr]BL[65.872];W[hq]WL[146.522]C[Glasses [3d]: let see if he can use the potentialGlasses [3d]: :PRobinUpton [4d?]: I'm thinking, still pretty equal - B no actual points yetCBlue [1d?]: p4 is becoming very big, isnt it?Goreon [2d]: b should take care that w doesnt get to playc10 shinigami [5d]: g2...shinigami [5d]: i donno about thisennuistic [1d]: these next few moves are the hardest for white.shinigami [5d]: g2 kinda gives W what he wants, which is strong center stonesCBlue [1d?]: how about F4 and then E4 triangle for small live?shinigami [5d]: ewwCBlue [1d?]: or is it possible to just tenuki?curlyshell: b may need more than  2 MVS 4 CNTR POT TO ACTUATEshinigami [5d]: hard to tenukiMaslov [3d]: c3shinigami [5d]: i think B realizes his situation nowCBlue [1d?]: ^^shinigami [5d]: g2 really looks like a critical mistake];B[hr]BL[40]OB[5]C[CBlue [1d?]: g2 seemed lik..yeahCBlue [1d?]: lol];W[iq]WL[143.205];B[fp]BL[40]OB[5];W[go]WL[140.399];B[dq]BL[40]OB[5];W[cq]WL[137.947];B[cr]BL[40]OB[5];W[eq]WL[123.548]C[CBlue [1d?]: too bad if this is gote thoughcurlyshell: classic inconsistent straategyennuistic [1d]: white wins a lot here.];B[dr]BL[40]OB[5]C[arunasr [?]: Doesnt N14 cut off the Q 15 group?];W[ep]WL[117.462];B[er]BL[40]OB[5]C[shinigami [5d]: wowshinigami [5d]: ridiculous outcome for WCBlue [1d?]: wow, senteshinigami [5d]: everything he could've wanted and more];W[bq]WL[98.483]C[CBlue [1d?]: but b has sente?ennuistic [1d]: no.ennuistic [1d]: white sente obviously.CBlue [1d?]: oh nokgs1d [1k]: huge center???CBlue [1d?]: lolGoreon [2d]: e8 Wagaboo [5k]: weird game é-èshinigami [5d]: b sente?curlyshell: wait a minute: b way better than us (by rank)CBlue [1d?]: come on e8 or sthshinigami [5d]: ya B can take senteshinigami [5d]: do it!!];B[br]BL[40]OB[4]C[Goreon [2d]: :(Wagaboo [5k]: can b2 before shinigami [5d]: xD];W[el]WL[84.849]C[Wagaboo [5k]: ah i just told itshinigami [5d]: B aiming for keeping the e5 cut aji?];B[dj]BL[40]OB[4]C[K2R [8d]: b can'tK2R [8d]: b should play g4K2R [8d]: for sentevarsan [3d]: b couldn't take sente];W[ej]WL[56.474]C[shinigami [5d]: g4????shinigami [5d]: what's the pointK2R [8d]: instead of b2shinigami [5d]: ohvarsan [3d]: j2 b2 a2 b1 h1 deadshinigami [5d]: ooh okCBlue [1d?]: p3  ^^CBlue [1d?]: not nowCBlue [1d?]: but after this exchange?];B[ei]BL[40]OB[4];W[fj]WL[45.774];B[dk]BL[40]OB[4];W[fi]WL[42.053]C[Wagaboo [5k]: w can start big yose like b14shinigami [5d]: ..shinigami [5d]: yose? it's middle gameshinigami [5d]: so many things to do on the board besides yose];B[pn]BL[40]OB[3]C[curlyshell: like LRshinigami [5d]: r3?shinigami [5d]: for W];W[mf]WL[15.459]C[Bushworm [2d]: woahEowyn [1k]: wow really does it work?shinigami [5d]: B can def connect out];B[me]BL[40]OB[3]C[shinigami [5d]: but W is trying to sac these efficiently];W[kg]WL[12.358]C[curlyshell: he thoiught that long?varsan [3d]: b didn't play n13 was too big  I thoughtgrooviest [5k]: white is a tricky dickycurlyshell: do these guys use time left after deciding on next move?];B[jh]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: b wondering if he can get a forcing move or 2 in before connectingshinigami [5d]: lol];W[kh]WL[40]OW[5]C[Eowyn [1k]: i guess best w can get is semedoriWagaboo [5k]: w just deadshinigami [5d]: semedori!?];B[ji]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: that certainly wasn't W's aimennuistic [1d]: nice.shinigami [5d]: to lose something like this is game endingennuistic [1d]: white dead unconditionally.Eowyn [1k]: it wasnt the aim but it turned out this Wagaboo [5k]: moves there are just ko threatsshinigami [5d]: every move B gets to surroundshinigami [5d]: is a move that is worth like triple pointsK2R [8d]: lot moremyeric [5d]: b winsEowyn [1k]: i agree. i am not saying this is the best strategy for wcurlyshell: w suffersWagaboo [5k]: when will b press top left corner ?shinigami [5d]: ya W really gambled and lost];W[qq]WL[40]OW[3]C[CBlue [1d?]: K9?CBlue [1d?]: mhhJjaz [1k]: what's the biggest move ? somthg like R3 ? R6?shinigami [5d]: lol now he plays r3Jjaz [1k]: ok :)Wagaboo [5k]: w should m9 shinigami [5d]: can just res, what's the point];B[pq]BL[40]OB[2]C[Wagaboo [5k]: jus to lose moreK2R [8d]: there is a koennuistic [1d]: ko here?shinigami [5d]: ya but there's no way B will lose iotennuistic [1d]: you mean in the middle?];W[pp]WL[40]OW[3]C[shinigami [5d]: it*];B[op]BL[40]OB[2];W[pr]WL[40]OW[3]C[Bushworm [2d]: ok so w wanted to make ko threats huhdavideo [3k]: looks like white has a planEowyn [1k]: yes there must be a ko here. (i don't see it, but i feel it.) and i also trust a high dan :)];B[po]BL[40]OB[2];W[oq]WL[40]OW[3];B[rq]BL[40]OB[2];W[pp]WL[40]OW[3]C[varsan [3d]: w can live by ko?];B[qr]BL[40]OB[2]C[CBlue [1d?]: p3 at s3 for simple tripod imhoBushworm [2d]: b already played a evasive manouver];W[mq]WL[40]OW[3]C[CBlue [1d?]: m4ennuistic [1d]: forced to capture.Eowyn [1k]: q3];B[lp]BL[40]OB[2]C[K2R [8d]: really difficult kodavideo [3k]: wehere's the ko?];W[pq]WL[40]OW[3];B[rr]BL[40]OB[2]C[Eowyn [1k]: q3 s2 m2 l2 o2 ?K2R [8d]: m11 l11 n12 m14 o15 CBlue [1d?]: w loaks toastyCBlue [1d?]: ah, P5ManOfLOL [6k]: cup too strong];W[oo]WL[40]OW[3]C[Eowyn [1k]: hmmCBlue [1d?]: Q7 maybe];B[np]BL[40]OB[2]C[Eowyn [1k]: p6 ?CBlue [1d?]: oh nice];W[mp]WL[40]OW[3]C[CBlue [1d?]: o4 = b can just kill quickly? oOvarsan [3d]: cup is stronger than the catshinigami [5d]: lol i kept wondering what u guys were saying with cup, now i see B's avatar lol];B[mr]BL[40]OB[2]C[CBlue [1d?]: ^^davideo [3k]: that ko still dont make sense to me....];W[nr]WL[40]OW[3]C[davideo [3k]: still looks like white's deaddavideo [3k]: even if black doesnt win koCBlue [1d?]: i dont get o4CBlue [1d?]: looks a bit too hellbent on killingBushworm [2d]: what ko was there?];B[mo]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: lol why wouldn't it be];W[nq]WL[40]OW[3]C[Eowyn [1k]: m2 varsan [3d]: l2 ];B[no]BL[40]OB[2];W[lr]WL[40]OW[3]C[CBlue [1d?]: well, R5 aji maybe];B[kr]BL[40]OB[2];W[ms]WL[40]OW[3]C[ennuistic [1d]: wow let live?varsan [3d]: not killerEowyn [1k]: w succeeded o.oennuistic [1d]: this is bad for black.davideo [3k]: i thought black coulda killed this/ennuistic [1d]: still need to fix r5 cut.raymeo [1d]: cut points all over];B[qm]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: black made a ton of points in the center, black now is playing safe and steadyRobinUpton [4d?]: w still has difficult ko?Goreon [2d]: who is ahead in points now?];W[rm]WL[40]OW[3]C[perepunys [4d]: i dont see so many points in the center thoughEowyn [1k]: o15 cut seems bigennuistic [1d]: i don't think there is a ko on bottom.RobinUpton [4d?]: In m11 sequence, w has l14 instead of o15 cut];B[rn]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: i haven't counted, but based on the exchanges, B should be ahead by plentyPinguschaf [?]: getting close];W[pm]WL[40]OW[3];B[qn]BL[40]OB[2]C[lobo [1k]: its more like w is behind than b is aheadCBlue [1d?]: K9 ?];W[hb]WL[40]OW[3]C[shinigami [5d]: notice the consequence of monster potential, W has barely gotten any territory addition since the right side];B[ic]BL[40]OB[2];W[bf]WL[40]OW[3];B[bg]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: whereas B has taken a corner, solidified another, and made points in the center];W[be]WL[40]OW[3];B[eh]BL[40]OB[2]C[Pinguschaf [?]: hmm b is leading like 5-10poirette [-]: still a game i feelPinguschaf [?]: but yose in center is complicated, so its not decidedkgs1d [1k]: hard to calculate who is leading now];W[fb]WL[40]OW[3]C[davideo [3k]: b7!];B[ec]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: b7 not as big as a move for B in the centerPinguschaf [?]: but center move is hard to choose];W[eb]WL[40]OW[3]C[shinigami [5d]: starting with something like g8];B[dd]BL[40]OB[2]C[Goreon [2d]: Pingu hast Du gegen Michael gewonnen?];W[cc]WL[40]OW[3]C[catsoldier [6k]: can w do something clever with all that center ajishinigami [5d]: B g8 is a good start to the centerEowyn [1k]: maybe first g7 and then j7 Pinguschaf [?]: wir spielen erst nächste wocheGoreon [2d]: ahEowyn [1k]: *i meant g8];B[il]BL[40]OB[2]C[lobo [1k]: is it? g8 f8 and it still doesnt look good for any of themCBlue [1d?]: w J2 aji keshi or good move?];W[jn]WL[40]OW[3]C[shinigami [5d]: if B played g8, then j8 was definitely his next move. seems like B is just skipping g8 all togethertenletters [1k]: hmm, hutoshi usually plays :60 byo on tygem... now :40 on KGS (up from :30)?];B[dm]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: ooohshinigami [5d]: nice movetenletters [1k]: must be enjoying the slower games];W[en]WL[40]OW[3]C[K2R [8d]: o15 is big];B[dn]BL[40]OB[2];W[co]WL[40]OW[3]C[CBlue [1d?]: b F8 ?catsoldier [6k]: good news, kibbitz seems better when the game is slower ^^davideo [3k]: k2r who do u see winning?];B[in]BL[40]OB[2]C[tenletters [1k]: kibitz is always awful, by definitionwniya [?]: what is upshinigami [5d]: kibitz is awesomer now that i'm doing itcatsoldier [6k]: ah, icBushworm [2d]: the game is also better when slower];W[jo]WL[40]OW[3]C[SteelyDan [6k]: awesomer is awesomeshinigami [5d]: o15easyboy [5k]: l10];B[fl]BL[40]OB[2];W[gl]WL[40]OW[3];B[fm]BL[40]OB[2]C[curlyshell: notice: kibitz almost entirely focussed on the contestshinigami [5d]: wellummjhall [15k]: thats absurdSteelyDan [6k]: ouchy ouchshinigami [5d]: i guess i could start trollingshinigami [5d]: to balance it outGoreon [2d]: w has an eye on m5];W[ir]WL[40]OW[3]C[catsoldier [6k]: uh, you're doing fine shinigami...shinigami [5d]: hahaK2R [8d]: should we say : w is in trouble ?shinigami [5d]: yesshinigami [5d]: i think we should];B[aq]BL[40]OB[2];W[em]WL[40]OW[3]C[Goreon [2d]: c7?ummjhall [15k]: according to my research,];B[ek]BL[40]OB[2]C[johnny [5k]: W g7 and j7?ummjhall [15k]: white is losingGoreon [2d]: ouchCBlue [1d?]: hope to see 6d bots vs real high dans soon, on kgs! ^^davideo [3k]: i hope these 2 have a rematchdavideo [3k]: and white shows his true powercurlyshell: wager on #moves till resshinigami [5d]: 6d bot i still in distant futureCBlue [1d?]: g8..?];W[ar]WL[40]OW[3];B[as]BL[40]OB[2]C[Bushworm [2d]: i think i will prefer the human game tenletters [1k]: b winslobo [1k]: shinigami if by future you mean now yes, its distant future ];W[kj]WL[40]OW[3]C[Bushworm [2d]: wont a bot game feel very artificial?ummjhall [15k]: g8 whatshinigami [5d]: now?shinigami [5d]: where is 6d bot lol];B[ki]BL[40]OB[2]C[davideo [3k]: desperation timeILoveZen: solid 5d exists];W[gm]WL[40]OW[3]C[ummjhall [15k]: what program];B[fk]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: solid 5d is a far cry from 6d];W[gk]WL[40]OW[3]C[shinigami [5d]: 6d and 5d is worlds apartlobo [1k]: look at Zen19D and his win ratio as a 5d, he clearly is 6d but stupid kgs ranking system is keeping him backshinigami [5d]: even i beat that zen bot, and i'm barely 4dK2R [8d]: zen19d ?];B[bp]BL[40]OB[2];W[cp]WL[40]OW[3]C[rabbit1 [3k]: g10??tenletters [1k]: b wins by are least 6lobo [1k]: id say around 70% of wins as a 5d makes him a solid 6rainydays [1d]: @shinigami: i guess for humans that's the case];B[io]BL[40]OB[2]C[CBlue [1d?]: zen19d is as strong as zen19s, but uses blitz timing.. hard for humans :/ummjhall [15k]: does zen19d play bots or humans];W[jp]WL[40]OW[3]C[ILoveZen: Zen19d actualy is 4d in slow gameslobo [1k]: yes K2R, the one playing on kgsshinigami [5d]: that bot was definitely not 6d. he couldn't understand kos or sekis, there's no way he could've held 6d with such weaknesseslobo [1k]: ...];B[im]BL[40]OB[2]C[rainydays [1d]: i think the difference between human 5d and human 6d is not that the human 6d consistently reads 3 moves deeperlobo [1k]: play him and get your ass handed to you :)shinigami [5d]: any 6d could simply play around those weaknesses and crush itrainydays [1d]: i think it's more about judgementshinigami [5d]: dude i already played himBunkrownik [2d]: wow zen is running on clustersshinigami [5d]: and kicked his buttTurtleDove [5k]: bots suck];W[ho]WL[40]OW[3]C[lobo [1k]: sweet, good for you];B[ln]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: wanna know how i did it? by kos lolwingnoll [8k?]: bots are only limited by hardware and programming at this pointlobo [1k]: but still he should be 6dkoticgood [4k]: how can you even say zen is solid 6d? silly thing to sayshinigami [5d]: nope];W[kq]WL[40]OW[3]C[ILoveZen: hardware power not allrainydays [1d]: but with increasing computing power bots will be reading deeper and deeperBunkrownik [2d]: it would be better if it could use GPU shinigami [5d]: that bot has a long way to go until 6dtenletters [1k]: wing, what else could they be limited by?];B[rl]BL[40]OB[2]C[wingnoll [8k?]: that's the point tenletters, it's not rocket sciencelobo [1k]: how can you say that when he has 70% win ratio??koticgood [4k]: plus the bot doesn't "read" lolshinigami [5d]: cause he beats 3ds and below to maintain itlobo [1k]: so what do you want the pass mark to be? 90%TurtleDove [5k]: by sensible people who don't want them ?tenletters [1k]: i seerainydays [1d]: @wingnoll, it's not the pointshinigami [5d]: he doesn't actually beat 6ds with that ratio does he?];W[rk]WL[40]OW[3]C[wingnoll [8k?]: rainy what is the point?];B[sm]BL[40]OB[2]C[lobo [1k]: id have to check his record against 6dshinigami [5d]: any n00b can get an inflated rank by playing handicaps all the timeBushworm [2d]: the point is u are pretending to make a pointdavideo [3k]: any hope for white in the middle?CBlue [1d?]: afaik u need 75% win ratio in dan regions to be considered underranked by 1tenletters [1k]: considering where "hardware" might be going in the future, it will be harder than rocket science];W[hj]WL[40]OW[3]C[rainydays [1d]: as long as they used expert systems instead of montecarlo algorithms more computing power didn't mean better playingkoticgood [4k]: blitz 5d, slow 4d, how does that make it a solid 6d? lol];B[md]BL[40]OB[2]C[wingnoll [8k?]: ibm could build a machine that would beat any pro, they did it with chess, they could do it with gotenletters [1k]: 5d+4d+fudge=6dNoisering [9k]: go is far more complex to modelNoisering [9k]: they will do it one day];W[mk]WL[40]OW[3]C[davideo [3k]: <----- doesn't understand why white hasn't resigned];B[mj]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: cause W is stubbornkoticgood [4k]: not like the bot reads lol, just plays out thousands of games per moveennuistic [1d]: uh oh..];W[lk]WL[40]OW[3]C[ennuistic [1d]: white got a lot here.koticgood [4k]: and chooses the move that wins the most in the simulations];B[li]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: no the bot definitely readsshinigami [5d]: i've played him, he definitely reads, and reads well];W[jj]WL[40]OW[3]C[ManOfLOL [6k]: 1k-2k+cookies=1 dankoticgood [4k]: it's monte carlokoticgood [4k]: just read about itwingnoll [8k?]: thoughts in the brain are algorithms also, same as a computer programtywin [1k?]: Depends on what you mean by "reading", I guess.shinigami [5d]: welllobo [1k]: he has 70% in even games, check KGS view];B[jk]BL[40]OB[2]C[tenletters [1k]: hmm, this may be an ignorant question, but does anyone else find it interesting that in corner situations the bots always play known joseki variations?shinigami [5d]: he can find tesujis well enoughtywin [1k?]: The process the computer uses is, of course, not the exact same as a human player uses.tywin [1k?]: Though the results may, in some cases, be difficult to distinguish.Pinguschaf [?]: but he isnt aware that its a tesuji :)Pinguschaf [?]: for him all moves are sameshinigami [5d]: haha yashinigami [5d]: truedavideo [3k]: computers will surpass human intelligence soonPinguschaf [?]: so he isnt readingPinguschaf [?]: not judgingwingnoll [8k?]: tywin, an algorithm is an algorithm regardless of the hardware used to enact itBushworm [2d]: i think that the result is easy to distinguish from human gamePinguschaf [?]: he is playing each move the same goodkoticgood [4k]: i think bots will hit a hard wall once their strength reaches the strength where yose is uniformummjhall [15k]: tenletters, probably from pattern matchingTurtleDove [5k]: are humans intelligent ?lobo [1k]: id say that if I beat 5d in about 50% games I'm a solid 5d, but if im winning 70% it just calls for 6d];W[bl]WL[40]OW[2]C[shinigami [5d]: really i know his style very well because i play that style easily. he basically only considers the board, doesn't consider many local situations. therefore, he moyos all the time and trades expertlyBushworm [2d]: bot will ever play bot like moves until there is a superior technology to emulate the persontenletters [1k]: do bots use databases, ummj?shinigami [5d]: throw away cut stones when it favors the board];B[bm]BL[40]OB[2]C[shinigami [5d]: doesn't even bother to see the territorial potential of the cut stonesshinigami [5d]: etc.ennuistic [1d]: eh?tywin [1k?]: wingnoll, demonstrating that the processes of the human mind are strictly Turing-machine algorithms is a bit beyond us at the moment.];W[bh]WL[40]OW[2]C[ennuistic [1d]: oh..ennuistic [1d]: b7 is so smart.tywin [1k?]: We can make certain assumptions, and *guess* that it is so, but...];B[ag]BL[40]OB[2]C[davideo [3k]: i played such a fun game today im so happypraeludium [5d]: w is trying his last cardwingnoll [8k?]: not sure what you mean tywinummjhall [15k]: tenletters, it depends on the program, could be combination of monte carlo, databases, eye libraries, etcdavideo [3k]: K2R will you give me some lessons after this?];W[bk]WL[40]OW[2]C[tenletters [1k]: let me guess, david, you won?];B[cm]BL[40]OB[2];W[ci]WL[40]OW[2]C[CBlue [1d?]: c12..];B[cg]BL[40]OB[2]C[CBlue [1d?]: ^^shinigami [5d]: w res soonshinigami [5d]: no worriesvarsan [3d]: separated b can live by b5 Bushworm [2d]: nothing wrong with winningtywin [1k?]: I mean that if you can actually figure out algorithms for human behavior, there's a Nobel prize in it for you.];W[an]WL[40]OW[2]C[tenletters [1k]: ofc notNoisering [9k]: i think he means it is very hard to simulate human thinking in the form of an algorithmwingnoll [8k?]: tywin are you saying people don't use algorithms to play go?praeludium [5d]: tesujiipraeludium [5d]: nice onetywin [1k?]: I'm saying that we can't prove this to be the case, wingnoll.yusa [3d]: bad i thinkyusa [3d]: b6 betterdavideo [3k]: define algorithmtywin [1k?]: It may be true, and it may not be true.ummjhall [15k]: stepsgoomba: define "define"wingnoll [8k?]: maybe you don't know what i mean by algorithm, i mean a logical set of rulesNoisering [9k]: if we has the human algorithm, psychology would be a real scienceennuistic [1d]: sente disconnect?Pinguschaf [?]: c12 looked better to meBlitzbold [1d]: since when humans are logical?Pinguschaf [?]: instead of c13ummjhall [15k]: i use algorithms to an extent, but also a lot of just intuition or guessing, as im a beginnerwingnoll [8k?]: when they play go];B[bj]BL[40]OB[1]C[varsan [3d]: this is good move b can't connect at therepraeludium [5d]: define "define "define" "ummjhall [15k]: maybe more algorithms the higher your rank isshinigami [5d]: humans plural are illogical, a human, singular, is very logicalNoisering [9k]: you never use instinct when playing go?];W[am]WL[40]OW[2]C[wingnoll [8k?]: if humans don't use an algorithm (logic) then it's just randomtenletters [1k]: [go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . X . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]tenletters [1k]: eektenletters [1k]: sorryshinigami [5d]: ....];B[cj]BL[40]OB[1]C[praeludium [5d]: o.oveggieboy [2d]: teach me how to dougieBlitzbold [1d]: that is near creationism wingnollEowyn [1k]: lucky you it wasn't a pron link ^^];W[ij]WL[40]OW[2]C[tenletters [1k]: :)];B[kk]BL[40]OB[1]C[veggieboy [2d]: anyone teach me how to dougie?praeludium [5d]: Im not sure w won a lot on that, since he lost a13curlyshell: an algorithm is usually considerred 2b a describable procedurelobo [1k]: lucky him, unlucky for us ;)veggieboy [2d]: damn no one knows how to dougie :(tywin [1k?]: Or some combination of both. We've already demonstrated that some parts of the way the universe works are not amenable to "logic" in a certain sense.];W[rp]WL[40]OW[2];B[qo]BL[40]OB[1]C[tywin [1k?]: They follow rules, of course, but not in a really deterministic sense.ummjhall [15k]: what is dougieBlitzbold [1d]: the point is: every algorithm is true... - for certain values of "tru"wingnoll [8k?]: tywin, i'm only considering the realm of the game of goPinguschaf [?]: b clearly ahead now by 10Pinguschaf [?]: on boardNoisering [9k]: everything is deterministic, it's our understanding of the rules that falls shortkoticgood [4k]: pretty convenient argument loltywin [1k?]: You're also considering the realm of human behavior at that game.ummjhall [15k]: also we may use algorithms based on incorrect logicwingnoll [8k?]: clearly a machine that can play go well is a long way from a general artificial intelligence];W[sk]WL[40]OW[1]C[K2R [8d]: resignDana [3k]: g13kgs1d [1k]: w wins];B[ia]BL[40]OB[1]C[Eowyn [1k]: g12curlyshell: r9K2R [8d]: b win easy ^^goomba: it will be far easier to make a strong go AI than an AI that can pass a turing test];W[ja]WL[40]OW[1];B[mc]BL[40]OB[1]C[davideo [3k]: K2R - wann aplay me 9 handicap game?lobo [1k]: true];W[mb]WL[40]OW[1]C[ummjhall [15k]: but turing test isnt necessarily relevantK2R [8d]: noK2R [8d]: sorrydavideo [3k]: even game?davideo [3k]: ive never played a 8 dandavideo [3k]: or even a 5 dangoomba: it is relevantdavideo [3k]: 4 dan is he strongest opponent ive facedshinigami [5d]: lolpraeludium [5d]: become one K2R [8d]: I happy for u];B[fh]BL[40]OB[1]C[davideo [3k]: i want u to play me at your full strength..];W[hh]WL[40]OW[1]C[davideo [3k]: so i can learn and be amazedlobo [1k]: hahahaAmerBeton [5k]: lolEowyn [1k]: yes it seems go is a small part of AI, humans still needs much more for skynettenletters [1k]: you would burnummjhall [15k]: its not considered relevant for general AI, as far as i've readshinigami [5d]: davideo is really working it lolBlitzbold [1d]: actually low dans are crapummjhall [15k]: anymorepraeludium [5d]: a bit of dignity davideo please];B[hg]BL[40]OB[1]C[K2R [8d]: for $50 ok];W[fd]WL[40]OW[1];B[fe]BL[40]OB[1]C[lobo [1k]: its actually a bit insulting davideodavideo [3k]: insulting to who?Blitzbold [1d]: i thought $50 for 5d - must be $80!];W[ih]WL[40]OW[1]C[lobo [1k]: to K2Rgoomba: human conversation is a perfect example of something that is totally illogicaldavideo [3k]: how?];B[ig]BL[40]OB[1]C[davideo [3k]: what in the worldcurlyshell: i am considering whether davideo could be considered b trollingdavideo [3k]: i wanna learn from a good playershinigami [5d]: sometimes it's annoying when you try to play teaching game, then people keep asking u after to play when u really just wanted to teach that once and have it on your own schedule not smoeone elseswingnoll [8k?]: strategy, algorithm, style, logic, reading, whatevertenletters [1k]: i don't think it is insulting, but it is naivelobo [1k]: to learn you dont need 8d at full powergoomba: and if an AI were to pass the turing test it would demonstrate an ability for both logical and illogical behaviorpraeludium [5d]: you learn more from even playerslobo [1k]: i'd be crushed by a mere 2d];W[gd]WL[40]OW[1]C[perepunys [4d]: ismt r19 massive?];B[ge]BL[40]OB[1]C[davideo [3k]: im just curious cause ive never played a 8 dan];W[om]WL[40]OW[1]C[ummjhall [15k]: youre kind of reconvincing me, im not sure though];B[on]BL[40]OB[1]C[go1d [6d]: b winsBlitzbold [1d]: it simply not as respectfully as may be appropriateshinigami [5d]: welcome to the party goldlobo [1k]: you wont learn more because you lose by 200pts than you'd if you lost by 20Eowyn [1k]: l7shinigami [5d]: you're a little latetywin [1k?]: The trouble is that the word "logic" has too many different meanings, and is often used very vaguely.go1d [6d]: which party ?tenletters [1k]: b won a long time ago];W[ap]WL[40]OW[1];B[ao]BL[40]OB[1]C[goomba: yes that is truewingnoll [8k?]: are our thoughts deterministic?shinigami [5d]: the parrtayyyy];W[km]WL[40]OW[1]C[goomba: our thoughts on not deterministicgoomba: are*Noisering [9k]: probably wingnoll];B[kl]BL[40]OB[1]C[Noisering [9k]: just impossible to decodego1d [6d]: deterministic = communism :p];W[bo]WL[40]OW[1]C[wingnoll [8k?]: can you prove that they are not?tywin [1k?]: If you can prove it one way or the other, wingnoll, there's that Nobel prize.duduu [5k]: s16 for b ?go1d [6d]: * the troll is on *];B[ed]BL[40]OB[1]C[koticgood [4k]: HAHA "can you prove"koticgood [4k]: when someone asks me thatbigben79 [7d]: thxHutoshi4 [8d]: thanksdavideo [3k]: it is rude of K2r to ask me for money just to play himkoticgood [4k]: i cease attempting to argue with themgoomba: if they were, a computer would have passed the turing test by nowGoreon [2d]: b 73 w 56shinigami [5d]: lol how is it rudeGoreon [2d]: *59Bushworm [2d]: u are so fast to ask such a question when offering nothing yourselfshinigami [5d]: he is a teacher, he should be compensated for his servicescsgo [?]: don't get b a5Bushworm [2d]: i mean about the proving stuffwingnoll [8k?]: i don't know the answerpraeludium [5d]: 8d are deterministic wingnoll [8k?]: but i've thought about it a lotEowyn [1k]: some does it for free, some for moneywingnoll [8k?]: that's why i askblurb: 50 may be bit much for just one game thoughtywin [1k?]: There are times when it's a legitimate question, kotic, though it is better asked as "Has it been (or can it be) demonstrated?"praeludium [5d]: they ask money when weaker lpayers ask them to play :pwingnoll [8k?]: because i really want to knowshinigami [5d]: when was the last time an 8d did it for free lolummjhall [15k]: its the question of the agesBushworm [2d]: i think you do not get the answer onlineK2R [8d]: I was kidding, i don't give lessonstywin [1k?]: Rather than the confrontational (and often childish) "Oh, yeah? Prove it!"Bushworm [2d]: try a religious leadertenletters [1k]: eowyn, do you do it for free or for money?goomba: proof is not much more than consensus or superstition anywayEowyn [1k]: free of course :P :)tenletters [1k]: hmm, are you available this weekend? ;)Eowyn [1k]: not for you, honey :)tenletters [1k]: :`(davideo [3k]: K2r is there anything i can saydavideo [3k]: for u to give me a gamedavideo [3k]: im willing to pay 5 dollarsdavideo [3k]: im poorummjhall [15k]: manK2R [8d]: I don't give lessonsEowyn [1k]: just play o normal game david, you dont need a 8dtenletters [1k]: K2R, i'll pay you in the tears of davideoummjhall [15k]: hahadavideo [3k]: not a lessondavideo [3k]: a serious gamedavideo [3k]: even - no handicapdavideo [3k]: itll be quicktenletters [1k]: no shit it woudummjhall [15k]: davideo you are 3k, why are you so insistentpraeludium [5d]: usually it's not quick and the stronger player lose his time davideo [3k]: we can do.... 20 secs per movedavideo [3k]: or something like thatCBlue [1d?]: try 10s ^^K2R [8d]: ...tenletters [1k]: if you want a teaching game, pay a teachertenletters [1k]: there are many on KGSummjhall [15k]: k2r will probably just censor you soonlepapillon [2k?]: and if u need money go to work :)tenletters [1k]: shygost, battousai, cornel are all great teacherslepapillon [2k?]: or teach 20k to get sometenletters [1k]: toname a fewdavideo [3k]: have a little grace and compassion praeludium [5d]: it's amusingdavideo [3k]: get off your high horse and give me a gametenletters [1k]: lolCBlue [1d?]: -.-ummjhall [15k]: have a little composuremurmurmm: get off the floortenletters [1k]: davideo is clearly a troll, but an amusing onedavideo [3k]: lol im not a troll manpraeludium [5d]: are you a child? davideo [3k]: u are mistakenCBlue [1d?]: awCBlue [1d?]:  /huglepapillon [2k?]: how can u ask, sure he'summjhall [15k]: you sound like an 18kdavideo [3k]: who me?ummjhall [15k]: yeahtenletters [1k]: wow, a contraction at the end of a sentence... very odd that'sdavideo [3k]: play me ummjhalldavideo [3k]: i will show you my strengthummjhall [15k]: i dont mean you sound like you are actually 18kdavideo [3k]: which is 3 kyu obviouslyummjhall [15k]: but you are acting like onedavideo [3k]: ohummjhall [15k]: i cant beat youdavideo [3k]: ill give u a teaching gamelobo [1k]: its very selfish to expect a stronger player go all out in a game that has no logical sense (given the strength difference)davideo [3k]: since K2r wont give me onelepapillon [2k?]: keep in mind that he still needs his 50 buckadavideo [3k]: ill lead by examplelepapillon [2k?]: s*ummjhall [15k]: why do people always offer me teaching games right when im about to go to sleepdavideo [3k]: because i want to show K2R a lessonCBlue [1d?]: lulslobo [1k]: ...ummjhall [15k]: ok then, let'sdavideo [3k]: k ill makelobo [1k]: thats just trollingummjhall [15k]: what isdavideo [3k]: i made the gamedavideo [3k]: it's called good community of godavideo [3k]: me teaching ummjhalldavideo [3k]: although K2R wouldn't teach mepromethean [11k?]: my daughter was taught by a korean 8p. I think she learned more from the 10k])