(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[2100]OT[5x60 byo-yomi]DT[2010-05-08]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[twentyK [7k]: thanks];AW[ba][bb][mb][nb][rb][cc][dc][ec][mc][rc][ad][bd][md][rd][me][re][nf][rf][ng][pg][qg][rg][do][eo][fo][cp][gp][cq][eq][fq][nq][oq][pq][qq][rq][cr][fr][lr][mr][rr][ms][ns][ps][rs]AB[fb][ob][qb][fc][nc][pc][qc][cd][dd][ed][nd][ae][be][fe][ne][qe][of][qf][cn][dn][en][fn][co][go][ho][oo][po][qo][bp][hp][np][rp][bq][hq][kq][lq][mq][sq][br][er][gr][hr][kr][or][pr][qr][sr][bs][ks][ls]C[twentyK [7k]: all them black too play first right Sentenel [-]: yes, all b to play, all unconditionaltwentyK [7k]: kkSentenel [-]: btw, none of these are so simple that you should be able to solve instantlySentenel [-]: always double check your answertwentyK [7k]: yea twentyK [7k]: i'm having hard time with the c17 onetwentyK [7k]: oh hmmtwentyK [7k]: i think i figuried it outtwentyK [7k]: a18 the first move twentyK [7k]: a19 a17 b17 d19 Sentenel [-]: d19 d18, then?twentyK [7k]: c19 Sentenel [-]: e19twentyK [7k]: e18 Sentenel [-]: yestwentyK [7k]: kk yaytwentyK [7k]: what one should i do next Sentenel [-]: bottom right is next easiest I thinkSentenel [-]: then top rightSentenel [-]: bottom left is hardesttwentyK [7k]: kktwentyK [7k]: oh lol that doesn't work twentyK [7k]: ah all i c for best outcome is seki ah this is hard lol thief0923 [3k?]: all a seki?twentyK [7k]: for group q2 but there must be somthing i can do there just need too find itthief0923 [3k?]: o2?thief0923 [3k?]: d2?twentyK [7k]: shhh thief0923 [3k?]: but o2thief0923 [3k?]: white would n2twentyK [7k]: r1 p1 n2 twentyK [7k]: white lives twentyK [7k]: o2 r1 p1 n2 twentyK [7k]: well that least what i cthief0923 [3k?]: white deadtwentyK [7k]: wait hmm twentyK [7k]: ah i still c ittwentyK [7k]: don't c ittwentyK [7k]: o2 r1 p1 n2 that make white live doesn't it that what i c so there somthing i'm missingSentenel [-]: bottom right is easy because the moves are not hard to find, but you must read furtherSentenel [-]: the others have harder moves to find, but shorter pathstwentyK [7k]: oh lol Sentenel [-]: well, bottom left has hard to find moves and a long path ^^twentyK [7k]: i think i firgurie it out just hard too c it lol twentyK [7k]: o2 r1 p1 n2 n1 o1 p2 is that it Sentenel [-]: yesSentenel [-]: correcttwentyK [7k]: ah headache loltwentyK [7k]: but yay i figuired it outSentenel [-]: top right is very short, but the path isn't as obvioustwentyK [7k]: kk the first move im going too read out is q19 twentyK [7k]: and see where that takes metwentyK [7k]: yea the q19 got too be the first move twentyK [7k]: or not hmm loo twentyK [7k]: loltwentyK [7k]: kk i'm going take small break cause i can't think nowtwentyK [7k]: so far moves i see that may work is q19 r16 q14 twentyK [7k]: but i need too read them out all the way twentyK [7k]: hmm i dont' think r16 workstwentyK [7k]: q14 may work twentyK [7k]: I think q19 works but i think u loses stones but need keep reading twentyK [7k]: or not ah headache twentyK [7k]: man i'm slow reader twentyK [7k]: q19 got too be it twentyK [7k]: U there Sentenel noogaborg: hey twenty are you thereCoray [11k]: life and death?twentyK [7k]: yeatwentyK [7k]: hard ones too Coray [11k]: can i try?Coray [11k]: one of emCoray [11k]: ?twentyK [7k]: sure just don't tell me the answerstwentyK [7k]: wait Coray [11k]: kk lolCoray [11k]: the bottom right oneCoray [11k]: i mean bottom leftCoray [11k]: is pretty easytwentyK [7k]: no top left u can doCoray [11k]: a17twentyK [7k]: and bottom not easy Coray [11k]: a18 is correct.twentyK [7k]: no the bottom righttwentyK [7k]: nowCoray [11k]: o2Coray [11k]: then for bottom left.......Coray [11k]: hmm ill think about it.....twentyK [7k]: did u solve ittwentyK [7k]: the bottom leftCoray [11k]: idk...twentyK [7k]: it hard twentyK [7k]: too me it isCoray [11k]: ohh maybeCoray [11k]: f4Coray [11k]: oh noCoray [11k]: it would leavetwentyK [7k]: lolCoray [11k]: lead*Coray [11k]: to a snapbacktwentyK [7k]: ah i just see a solution loltwentyK [7k]: don't twentyK [7k]: cheatertwentyK [7k]: wait ohtwentyK [7k]: no too read it all outtwentyK [7k]: now*Coray [11k]: wahhh its hardtwentyK [7k]: even the person who put it up said it hard and he was dan playertwentyK [7k]: but i think i see it nowCoray [11k]: lol yupCoray [11k]: try it?Coray [11k]: can i see control?twentyK [7k]: no loolCoray [11k]: plz???twentyK [7k]: noCoray [11k]: fine lol d2twentyK [7k]: theres something we missingtwentyK [7k]: even whe cheating i can't find it lol twentyK [7k]: have u find the answerSentenel [-]: you will have two tries for the top rightSentenel [-]: if you can get it within those twoSentenel [-]: I will show you the answer for the bottom leftSentenel [-]: so, what's the answer for the top right?Sentenel [-]: the problem is b to live hereSentenel [-]: q19 as the first move is incorrectCoray [11k]: ohhhhCoray [11k]: then yaCoray [11k]: q19 livesSentenel [-]: incorrectCoray [11k]: u sure?Sentenel [-]: yesCoray [11k]: .....Coray [11k]: idk...Coray [11k]: play it out?Sentenel [-]: that defeats the purposeSentenel [-]: :ptwentyK [7k]: no i will try too read it outCoray [11k]: lol i just think that it does make it livetwentyK [7k]: first i want too see why q19 doesnt workCoray [11k]: right same hereCoray [11k]: that looks likelife to metwentyK [7k]: so i will read that out firstSentenel [-]: You could just give up on the top right and get the answer, but then you're on your own for the bottom leftSentenel [-]: :pSentenel [-]: (which is harder)twentyK [7k]: yea we couldn't figurie it even with cheatingCoray [11k]: sameCoray [11k]: Sentenel, all i can see for black living is q19.Coray [11k]: i dont see why notCoray [11k]: or whyCoray [11k]: it cant liveCoray [11k]: i cant even make white kill when black plays thereSentenel [-]: often, problems are difficult when moves aren't obvious for the opponentSentenel [-]: part of the problem is figuring out white's responseSentenel [-]: there aren't that many spots, just keep trying different onestwentyK [7k]: i'm still trying to firguire out why q19 doens't work hard!!!Coray [11k]: lol same here D:Sentenel [-]: well, black clearly gets 1 eye on topSentenel [-]: soSentenel [-]: white must prevent a second eyeSentenel [-]: even if you look at every spot there, there are only 7 choicestwentyK [7k]: hmmCoray [11k]: i still cant find ittwentyK [7k]: oh lol twentyK [7k]: i think find out why q19 doesn't worktwentyK [7k]: can i show it?twentyK [7k]: wait twentyK [7k]: nvmCoray [11k]: i cant find black's death when he plays q19Coray [11k]: its impossibleCoray [11k]: lolCoray [11k]: white cant kill unless you cheattwentyK [7k]: hmm there must be a way Coray [11k]: and play 2 timesCoray [11k]: i cant find itCoray [11k]: play almost everything lolSentenel [-]: I guarantee it is possibleCoray [11k]: omg im gonna kill myself if i dont find it lol x.xCoray [11k]: (not literal of course)Sentenel [-]: The crazier a problem drives you the better you feel when you find it :)Coray [11k]: ahh hey guys i gtg for a lil bitCoray [11k]: i'll be back on later thoCoray [11k]: cyatwentyK [7k]: kktwentyK [7k]: byetwentyK [7k]: oh hmmtwentyK [7k]: kk i c why now i think twentyK [7k]: q19 p15 q15 p16 p17 q14 twentyK [7k]: p15 p16 q16 q15 r16 twentyK [7k]: and that the reason why it deadtwentyK [7k]: with q19 twentyK [7k]: right? Sentenel twentyK [7k]: or am i wrongtwentyK [7k]: that took forever just too find why q19 doen'st work Sentenel [-]: ah sorrySentenel [-]: backSentenel [-]: one sec I'll looktwentyK [7k]: those varitons are why q19 doesn't work Sentenel [-]: correctSentenel [-]: p15 kills q19twentyK [7k]: now too find the right moveSentenel [-]: ^^Sentenel [-]: pm me when you've got ittwentyK [7k]: kk twentyK [7k]: well if the weak point is p15 i'm guessing the answer somewhere in theretwentyK [7k]: is that the best outcome hmm twentyK [7k]: p15 q19 dead hmm so p15 does not worktwentyK [7k]: man i really want too know what the answer too the bottom left istwentyK [7k]: does p16 make two eyestwentyK [7k]: hmmtwentyK [7k]: so p16 r16 q16 q19 q14 that alivetwentyK [7k]: p16 q19 q14 r16 q16 twentyK [7k]: alivetwentyK [7k]: p16 q16 r16 q15 q14 alivetwentyK [7k]: does r16 work doesn't luk like but i'll read that out too twentyK [7k]: or maybe it does work twentyK [7k]: but p16 pretty sure works twentyK [7k]: i need too stop half reading Sentenel [-]: going afk for a little, so wont respond to a pm during that time, I'll let you know when I get backtwentyK [7k]: kk lol twentyK [7k]: wait hmm twentyK [7k]: p16 q14 hmmtwentyK [7k]: loltwentyK [7k]: i think that dead twentyK [7k]: ah headache lol twentyK [7k]: p16 q14 q15 r16 q16 q19 dead not gudtwentyK [7k]: how this going help me in the game when takes me forever too read it out lol twentyK [7k]: yea i don't think p16 works twentyK [7k]: p16 q14 q19 q16 twentyK [7k]: the problem bottom makes a false eye with p16 Sentenel [-]: backtwentyK [7k]: kk twentyK [7k]: still trying too solveSentenel [-]: looks like you're on the right tracktwentyK [7k]: now too luk at r16 at first i didn't think that would work but reading it luks like it does work twentyK [7k]: and the attack on p15 does not work with it twentyK [7k]: ah hmm twentyK [7k]: r16 p16 p15 q19 q16 q14 dead i think hmm twentyK [7k]: r16 p16 q19 p15 p17 q14 deadtwentyK [7k]: so maybe r16 does not work twentyK [7k]: kk how about q14 twentyK [7k]: the snap back does not work righttwentyK [7k]: no it does not work kk twentyK [7k]: q14 r16 q16 bent four right twentyK [7k]: q14 p16 q19 hmm what next twentyK [7k]: hmm twentyK [7k]: q14 q16 r16 p16 q19 alive righttwentyK [7k]: hmm i don't see how white can kill once black does q14 twentyK [7k]: q14 q19 p16 alivetwentyK [7k]: q14 q16 r16 q19 p16 alive twentyK [7k]: yea got too be q14 unless i forgot somethingtwentyK [7k]: q14 p16 q19 p15 p17 r16 q16 aliveSentenel [-]: alrightSentenel [-]: what's your solution?twentyK [7k]: q14 twentyK [7k]: the first moveSentenel [-]: you sure?twentyK [7k]: yes Sentenel [-]: did you check every response?twentyK [7k]: yes Sentenel [-]: incorrect :/Sentenel [-]: wellSentenel [-]: you put in a lot of effort, you get another chance :ptwentyK [7k]: kk i don't get why q14 does not work ](;B[pa]C[twentyK [7k]: next for whiteSentenel [-]: incorrectSentenel [-]: read :)Coray [11k]: white to kill top right?Coray [11k]: q19 is the only way to kill itCoray [11k]: otherwise it livesSentenel [-]: take q19 off];W[oe];B[od];W[pd];B[pe];W[qd])(;B[dr]C[twentyK [7k]: for white?twentyK [7k]: where would u go next Coray [11k]: d1?Coray [11k]: or noCoray [11k]: c1Coray [11k]: c1 bestCoray [11k]: is correct :)(Coray [11k]: :)Coray [11k]: then c1Coray [11k]: whitetwentyK [7k]: well least right about the first moveCoray [11k]: loltwentyK [7k]: this is wrongtwentyK [7k]: i give up i just too see what the answer is lol](;W[cs]C[Coray [11k]: ya no goodCoray [11k]: f4 black](;B[fs]C[Coray [11k]: e1];W[es];B[dq];W[dp];B[fp](;W[ds]C[Coray [11k]: i got it](;B[dr];W[gq])(;B[gq];W[dr]))(;W[gq];B[ep]))(;B[fp]C[Coray [11k]: nopeCoray [11k]: i can kill all of em except for that bottom lefttwentyK [7k]: back too the startSentenel [-]: solved the rest?twentyK [7k]: yea sept the last one Sentenel [-]: got the top right?twentyK [7k]: i'm pretty sure i did Sentenel [-]: sequence?Sentenel [-]: hmmtwentyK [7k]: q19 Sentenel [-]: hold onSentenel [-]: how about thisSentenel [-]: before you answer](;W[gq]C[Coray [11k]: g3 white connectsCoray [11k]: d4Coray [11k]: black];B[dp]C[Coray [11k]: death])(;W[dq](;B[ep];W[dp]C[twentyK [7k]: what about this])(;B[gq];W[ep];B[fs];W[es];B[ds];W[es])))(;B[dq](;W[dp];B[fp]C[twentyK [7k]: lol Sentenel [-]: -_-](;W[gq];B[fs]C[twentyK [7k]: oh hmm Sentenel [-]: ...Sentenel [-]: you had itSentenel [-]: didn't notice this was atari?twentyK [7k]: no i guess not lol Sentenel [-]: :p](;W[ep];B[es])(;W[es];B[ep]))(;W[ep]C[twentyK [7k]: srry just wanted too c that sequencetwentyK [7k]: g3 deadSentenel [-]: yup, dead shapetwentyK [7k]: loltwentyK [7k]: thanks for helping me outSentenel [-]: npSentenel [-]: good persistance on the top right :)Sentenel [-]: q16 is not at all intuitive, which makes that problem more difficult than, say, the bottom righttwentyK [7k]: yea took me foreverSentenel [-]: which has a longer path to read, but is easy to find];B[gq]))(;W[es](;B[fp];W[gq];B[ep];W[dp]C[twentyK [7k]: nvm])(;B[ep];W[dp];B[gq];W[fp]))))(;W[ds];B[cs]C[Coray [11k]: nopeCoray [11k]: then d3]))(;B[ac];W[bc]C[Coray [11k]: hm thats wrongCoray [11k]: or a18])(;B[ab]C[Coray [11k]: its needed.];W[bc]C[Coray [11k]: then c19? monkey jump?Coray [11k]: or would that not workCoray [11k]: noCoray [11k]: then d19twentyK [7k]: u know the point of life and death is too read them outCoray [11k]: ya d19Coray [11k]: d18... white would e18Coray [11k]: black e19Coray [11k]: yaCoray [11k]: thats it right there i think.....twentyK [7k]: so what the answer?Coray [11k]: hmm noCoray [11k]: cuzCoray [11k]: white would play d19twentyK [7k]: or still figuireing it outCoray [11k]: black would have to react...Coray [11k]: still figuring it outtwentyK [7k]: then i'm going try too solve that bottom left it hardCoray [11k]: okay i got itCoray [11k]: a18, then d19];B[da];W[db]C[Coray [11k]: thats lifeCoray [11k]: okay...twentyK [7k]: start overCoray [11k]: c19];B[ca];W[ea]C[Coray [11k]: e18];B[eb];W[cb]C[Coray [11k]: d19];B[da]C[Coray [11k]: and no eyestwentyK [7k]: yupCoray [11k]: well, one])(;B[nr];W[qs]C[Coray [11k]: p1];B[os];W[mr]C[Coray [11k]: n1];B[ms];W[ns]C[Coray [11k]: p2];B[or];W[nr]C[Coray [11k]: q2Coray [11k]: death];B[pr]C[twentyK [7k]: yea])(;B[cs]C[Coray [11k]: its harrdd];W[dr];B[dp]C[Coray [11k]: thats alive];W[es];B[fp];W[ep];B[gq])(;B[es](;W[fs];B[cs];W[dr];B[ds];W[gq])(;W[ds];B[fs];W[dr];B[gs];W[gq])(;W[dr];B[fs];W[gq];B[ep];W[dp]))(;B[ds];W[dr];B[es];W[cs])(;B[fp];W[dr];B[gq];W[es];B[ep];W[cs];B[dp];W[dq])(;B[fs];W[dr];B[es];W[gq])(;B[dq];W[dr];B[fp];W[es])(;B[qd])(;B[pd]C[Sentenel [-]: only way](;W[pa];B[pf](;W[pb];B[qa])(;W[oa];B[pb]))(;W[oe];B[od];W[pa];B[pf]))(;B[od]C[twentyK [7k]: kk ];W[pf](;B[pa];W[pd])(;B[pe];W[qd]))(;B[pf];W[oe];B[od];W[pd];B[pe];W[qd])(;B[oe];W[pf];B[pa];W[pd]))